From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #4 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 4 Jan 2001 Vol 08 : Num 004 In this issue: the_dojang: Call for papers the_dojang: Kung Fu Bear the_dojang: Re: baby alert the_dojang: Re: Zen Puzzle the_dojang: training videos the_dojang: Korean Zen the_dojang: Bon Voyage the_dojang: Re: What is Hapkido? the_dojang: Lineage the_dojang: Hoi Jeon Moo Sool the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #3 the_dojang: Hapkido lineage tree the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~999 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 20:20:03 PST Subject: the_dojang: Call for papers Call for papers... The Central States Anthropological Society's 77th Annual Meeting will be held in Lexington, KY, March 29th thru April 1st, 2001. Dr. Michael Davis will chair a panel dealing with varied facets of martial traditions. Individual papers will be presented followed by a "show and tell" session. Anyone interested can contact: Dr. Michael Davis Department of Anthropology Truman State University McClain Hall 214 100 East Normal Kirksville, MO 63501-4221 660-785-4636 FAX = 660-785-4181 Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 22:53:07 EST Subject: the_dojang: Kung Fu Bear Click here: TwistedHumor.com - Past program files of the day had to pass this one along, folks. ever seen a bear do martial arts? melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.chajonshim.com Proud Sponsor of the 10th Annual 2001 US Open Taekwondo Championships ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 23:18:23 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: baby alert In a message dated 12/30/2000 10:52:51 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Hi Melinda. Are you trying for a New Year Baby? Best wishes for Mom, Dad, and the newborn. Sincerely, Rudy >> hi rudy, et al, we're back, and surprisingly.....it's a GIRL!! we were expecting a boy :). her name is elizabeth boone and she was born on 12-29 at 5:08pm, weighing in at 7lbs, 12ozs. she's just beautiful. we finally made it home from texas (to kansas city) today and are just glad to be home finally. she took the car ride surprisingly well. thanks to all for your support and good wishes :) melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.chajonshim.com Proud Sponsor of the 10th Annual 2001 US Open Taekwondo Championships ------------------------------ From: Sarah Pride Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 22:30:55 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Zen Puzzle Of course the first thing to address when trying to answer this puzzle is, what is meant by "zen" here? It seemed to me this was a term applied by Mr. Hamilton, not necessarily by his Doju-nim. The latter may have meant it to be a bit more straightforward than a Zen puzzle. Then again, he might not have. It's so hard to tell without knowing the exact context, the person himself, etc. :) - -Sarah Pride- ------------------------------ From: Wmakarate@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 23:40:43 EST Subject: the_dojang: training videos I am cleaning out my numerous training videos, mostly reality combat & self defense based, some common & some not so common. All are videos which we have used, and all are the ORIGINAL Video in the ORIGINAL video case! All are in like new condition. Only one copy of each title. If interested please email me personally at wmakarate@aol.com (so as not to clog up the listserv) & I'll email you a list. Thanks! Mike Anderson ------------------------------ From: David Reed Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 21:15:28 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Korean Zen A few points I'd like to include. Some have mentioned that the puzzle by Master Kimm is a "koan". This is a Japanese term and the comments made about koans, while accurate, do not reflect their use in Korean Zen. Korean Zen is different in many ways. For instance, there is no passing of a certain number of koans to be awarded a "kensho" or enlightenment document as happens in Japanese Zen. Koreans do not use a kyosaku or "enlightenment stick" to "awaken" the minds of sleepy meditators. Korean methods would be considered more layed back in appearance. Perhaps this is because of the cultural differences between the peoples. While I've studied under Japanese, Chinese, Korean, and Tibetan Buddhists, I can't speak definitively to why there are significant differences, only that they definitely exist. I would gently admonish my friends here not to make statements that confuse them unless they have long experience. It would be like responding to a post on a completely different martial art by comparing it with what you know out of the original context. This might lose the value of the thread and honestly, this is a great training method almost lost in the west. Riddles used in this method for martial artists are also different then classic enlightenment methods. While still, non-discriminating mind is a goal, it is only the barest beginning. First, discernment of principles of martial arts after strenuous training are enabled and tested this way. When you have both internalized a curriculum and have a quiet, concentrated mind, the riddle can facilitate everything falling into place. This enables the next steps to be taken. Second, these martial riddles are often structured to illustrate particular principles for a given audience. So, a lower Dan audience might be given a riddle like this one which classically illustrates principles of continuous change somewhat like the water principle. Third, they are meant to cause you to see your training in the light of their context. Keeping the riddle in the back of one's mind helps grasp the essence of the training. As a corollary, this sort of mind is directly tested in some Japanese schools which use a master with a sword behind the seated, blindfolded student. The student must answer the blind attack in complete harmony, with pure and natural technique. An action riddle if you will. As for idea to help mull over a riddle like this: literal interpretation, transposition of words or ideas are "thinking" as opposed to reflecting a principle. More clearly, verbally describing masterful art, music, or athletics never does them justice. However, if you see a masterful painting of a dance you get it. Clear your mind, see and feel your training as it feels in your bones and you will naturally give an answer. Also, when you see one finger and then a fist, the principle involved, like the key to many techniques, lies in the transition not in the beginning or end. Again, art takes you on a path with the two points serving as a frame and only a frame. I am glad that this method is still used. Having had the great good luck to train with Dr. Kimm in Texas on a few occasions, I feel he is the genuine article and his students are lucky to experience techniques not otherwise used today. It would be interesting if some of the more senior list members would share the methods they have seen or used in this sort of context. Lastly, let me say that I do not believe using this method make a style or instructor more traditional or valid. It is however, a superior mental training model that can be used and adapted in many ways. Regards, David ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 01:43:55 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Bon Voyage Master Burrese writes: > Well the day is finally here. We are off to Spokane this afternoon and then > off to Korea tomorrow morning. Alain: Have a great trip, and keep a diary so you can share your experiences with the rest of us. Rudy ------------------------------ From: DrgnSlyr5@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 02:42:01 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: What is Hapkido? In a message dated 1/3/2001 7:50:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << My goal in responding to Carstens' original question was to suggest some more technical ways of defining what constitutes Hapkido as a martial art. However, your approach has kept the dialogue going and that in itself has been a service. >> Hmmm. A technical way of defining (vs. definition by origin)? The only technical definition I remember reading on this thread was a distinction between GMs' curriculum containing no forms or differing numbers of forms. Rather, the search for "Definition" seems to be (to some), a quest to link GMs and associations of divergent or different arts into some common ancestral beginning, thereby making one big Hapkido family "in the broadest sense." To what end? <> If they have to "sub-qualify" according to an art other than hapkido, I have to agree with a previous post - if it's something other than hapkido, why call it hapkido? Does including the name hapkido somewhere in their identification somehow give whatever base art they teach some greater validity? Does GM Ji qualify what he teaches by any other art than "hapkido"? If they trace their lineage back to GM Ji as evidence of their being of "hapkido" lineage, doesn't it follow that GM Ji is the man with the right to define what hapkido is? Trying to follow the logic or lack thereof, DS ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 03:08:13 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Lineage Patrick writes: > And as soon as GM Seo, GM Suh, and SGM Lee bow low (one of those Korean > traditions) and dump the Chinese influence, perhaps GM Ji will allow them to > reclaim the Hapkido heritage they divorced themselves from. =:) With all due respect to Grand Master Ji, as well as Patrick's position. I see no reason for anyone to bow low. All the Grand Masters he mentioned took the opportunity to learn from the external influences that permeated Korean martial arts. This is how martial arts became more sophisticated. The peninsula, now know as Korea, was overrun by both Japanese and Chinese armies a number of times. At other times it even collaborating with the same foreign armies. In addition, the border with China shifted a number of times. Therefore, it is only natural for this to have occurred. There is not one modern founder who has not borrowed technique for his "creation" from a previous source. There are only a number of ways to hurt the human body, and I do not believe that our ancestors did not figure them out long before our recent founders created their arts. Evolution has a nasty way of eliminating those who do not keep up with the times. The name, any name, never made an art -- practising made the arts. After fifty years of practising, I have yet to see any art flourish without this one simple ingredient. Anyone can tag a name to an art they "create"; however, it won't mean a thing until students begin (and continue) to practise it. We all appreciate the efforts of our "martial art historians" to document their findings and, in order to get it right, they need to raise questions. When they DO get it right, it is as right as the source they used to make their assumptions from. Perhaps we should reflect on the sound advise recently posted by another Master who suggested that we pay less attention to history and more to practising the arts. History of Korean arts, to date, cannot be substantiated. In any case, what has taken place can never be changed. Martial arts, wherever they were founded, are in a constant state of evolution. This is so, because there is a constant change in the many things that have a direct bearing on it. As long as people change, martial arts will change. We are free to accept or decline any change -- it is our choice. The sooner we realize that the choices or beliefs of others need not influence us, the sooner we can live together in the harmony we seek as martial art practitioners. Sincerely, Rudy National Korean Martial Arts Association ------------------------------ From: mtomlins@mail.volusia.k12.fl.us Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 18:03:08 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Hoi Jeon Moo Sool I have never in my life seen anyone move with a sword like I did when I attended a training session with GM Myung Jae Ok!! It was amazing. Here is this older Korean man probably in his 60's and he is chopping and turning with a sword so fast in every direction that it was like watching one of those sped up Kung Fu movies!!! I was truly humbled and inspired many times over that day. Mike Tomlinson ------------------------------ From: "Chris Hamilton" Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:04:01 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #3 You are absolutely right Mr. Steffan. That is essentially the same explanation we were given in class yesterday. Thanks, Chris H. ------------------------------ From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:08:51 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido lineage tree Carsten Jorgensen wrote: Bruce posted a link to a "Hapkido Lineage Tree" - I have some comments later, but Dakin do you still have your tree up somewhere? My reply: Yes, it is still up at: http://php.indiana.edu/~burdickd/hapkido.htm Please note that it is heavily based upon Dr. He-Young Kimm's books, and that Dr. Kimm is a student of GM Ji Han-Jae. There is probably a bias towards the history espoused by GM Ji, although of course Dr. Kimm is the best historian of Korean martial arts we've got. Also note that the students of Chinul Chang from NYC have pointed out that he's not in there. I hope to add him and others to the tree soon, so if you have information on the hapkido lineage, please send a brief note of the lineage additions. Thanks! Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 6:46:25 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #4 ****************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.