From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #5 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 4 Jan 2001 Vol 08 : Num 005 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #3 the_dojang: Re: Re: What is Hapkido? the_dojang: Re: David and Kyosaku the_dojang: Re: Zen puzzles the_dojang: RE:Why We Question the_dojang: Re: Puzzle Mats the_dojang: Re: Koans the_dojang: RE: Family Tree the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #3 the_dojang: certification/license of USTU TKD Schools/Instructors the_dojang: Puzzle mats? the_dojang: Taekwondo Books the_dojang: RE: What is Hapkido? the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~999 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Griffin" Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 09:50:14 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #3 Our school uses them (I don’t know which brand) and I’m not real crazy about them. I have seen injured toes from the seams (the teacher under whom I train most frequently is nursing a broken toe right now from one of those lame mats). Additionally, these mats seem to be a little more slippery than I would have guessed. When my feet get sweaty -- about 10 seconds into the workout usually :-) – I start worrying about traction. But YMMV. - --- begin quoted text --- From: Gregory Giddins Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 08:50:41 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Puzzle mats? Hi all, Happy New Year/Millenum. Does anyone have an opinion on puzzle mats? I see alot of companies selling them, is anyone using them in their dojang? If so, for how long? And for what uses? And how are they holding up? I looked up some old issues of the_dojang and just found a couple references to them, one being students getting jammed toes from the seams. Anyone else encounter that? They sure seem like a great option, being so much more inexpensive than vinyl covered mats. I know all you richie-rich owners like the real ones :), but for us little guys are puzzle mats worth buying for every-day training? Or is it like using a washcloth as a beach towel? - --- end quoted text --- - ---===--- Jim Griffin www.wuma.com sitebuilder.liveuniverse.com/jgriffin/ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 15:32:49 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Re: What is Hapkido? DrgnSlyr5@aol.com wrote: >If they have to "sub-qualify" according to an art other than hapkido, I >have >to agree with a previous post - if it's something other than hapkido, why >call it hapkido? Does including the name hapkido somewhere in their >identification somehow give whatever base art they teach some greater >validity? Does GM Ji qualify what he teaches by any other art than >"hapkido"? If they trace their lineage back to GM Ji as evidence of their >being of "hapkido" lineage, doesn't it follow that GM Ji is the man with >the >right to define what hapkido is? > >Trying to follow the logic or lack thereof, > >DS Perhaps I misunderstand, but I have always heard the Hapkido taught by Grandmaster Ji, Han Jae as "Sin Moo Hapkido." So, while he might lay claim to being the founder of Hapkido it seems, at least to me, that he in fact DOES make a qualification as to the art he teaches. Maybe this is just to make it clear as to WHICH Hapkido is taught by GM Ji. Something like "Sin Moo Hapkido" = "Original Hapkido" or "Hapkido founded by GM Ji." But the original post said that many Grandmasters qualify their Hapkido according to KWAN, not according to another art. There does seem to be a difference between a Kwan and the art it teaches (i.e., Taekwon-Do Chung Do Kwan). To sub-qualify it with another art would be saying something like Hapkido-Tang Soo Do, which I have never seen before. See the difference? It seems that the people who say GM Ji founded Hapkido view it this way: GM Choi = yawara -> GM Ji = yawara + kicking and some other new things = Hapkido. Meanwhile, those who think GM Choi founded Hapkido view it as: GM Choi = yawara -> Hapkido due to a name change (either "given" by GM Ji or even before this according to Suh Bok Sub) -> GM Ji taking Hapkido and adding some things and coming up with "Sin Moo Hapkido." In any event, it seems that there are (at least) two different arts, both named Hapkido. It's very reminiscent of the various arts that are called Taekwon-Do. Which means, I doubt if this will be agreed upon in MY lifetime. By the way, since GM Ji has clearly stated that he gave the name "Hapkido" to GM Choi does anyone know what he means by this? Was it just so his teacher could have a new name for the art he was teaching? Was it because he did not want to use it to refer to the art he was teaching? Any of you who know GM Ji reasonably well have any insights about this? Taekwon, Chris "Every experience of beauty points to infinity." Hans Urs von Balthasar _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Migukyong@aol.com Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 10:53:09 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: David and Kyosaku Some sun practictioners do use a concentration stick. Master Mi Yi was nice enough to show me the one she got dring her last trip to Korea. It was made from bamboo with a slice down the middle. Due to the Sino-Japanese influence on Korea, it is difficult to say this always occurs or this never occurs, particularly when Sun, Korea's Zen, is practice in both China and Japan, although in slightly different forms. Not to mention, as a member of both Ekoji Buddhist Sangha and Kwanohmsa, I can definately say a master will use whatever he/she feels necessary to spur your growth. just my humble opinion. frank ------------------------------ From: Sarah Pride Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:47:20 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Zen puzzles I find this topic fascinating, and I'm starting to understand what you guys mean! It gives you a "humbled" feeling to worry about having the "right" answer - when there is no real answer at all! It's like looking at an abstract painting and insisting to others it is only what _you_ see, not what _they_ see. It's almost like the feeling you get when you think about something your mind cannot grasp, such as where you were before you were born. - -Sarah Pride- P.S. Sometimes I feel so young and naive. :P ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 12:09:12 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE:Why We Question Dear Rudy: "....We all appreciate the efforts of our "martial art historians" to document their findings and, in order to get it right, they need to raise questions. When they DO get it right, it is as right as the source they used to make their assumptions from. Perhaps we should reflect on the sound advise recently posted by another Master who suggested that we pay less attention to history and more to practising the arts. History of Korean arts, to date, cannot be substantiated. In any case, what has taken place can never be changed. Martial arts, wherever they were founded, are in a constant state of evolution. This is so, because there is a constant change in the many things that have a direct bearing on it. As long as people change, martial arts will change. We are free to accept or decline any change-it is our choice. The sooner we realize that the choices or beliefs of others need not influence us, the sooner we can live together in the harmony we seek as martial art practitioners....." I think your comments stand as an invitation to remind ourselves why it is important to sustain the kind of process that is going on right now on this Net and I will own specifically between Patrick and myself. Whatever Patrick may believe about our interactions, I have come to understand that dialogues such as the "What is Hapkido" exchanges are a valuable venue for getting information out to the lurking Hapkido population which cannot or will not question the historical, technical and philosophical nature of our art. The effort is not to convert Patrick to my way of thinking, or for him to convert me. The effort is to use this exchange as an opportunity to bring to light information, resources, citations, observations, opinions, etc. for people to witness to and make up their minds. Some portion of those "lurkers" will say "so what" and some will say " I didn't know that". In both cases the responses will at least come from an informed position rather than out of ignorance or blind allegiance. A second reason for continuing this dialogue is that the Hapkido leadership has done a very poor job in providing accurate, timely and dispassionate information regarding how the art developed and what the influences were. I enjoy the challenge of my research but it would be one helluva lot easier if organizations were a bit more disclosing about their membership, if Hapkido leadership had been a bit more candid about their motives, and Hapkido practitioners had been a bit more curious about their art. I'm one person asking questions and putting my opinions out there for people to take shots at. I am no hero-type. I just know that when these dialogues get going they usually build to a pitch and then everyone just throws their hands up and moves on to arguing about who would win a NHB between Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan. Which brings me to the third motive for continuing this dialogue and that is the fervent hope that such discussion will help people to overcome the standing fear of intellectual analysis in the martial arts and specifically in Hapkido. When I first began my research and attempted to discuss some of my curiousities about the art with people like GM Myung (WHF) it was plain that my efforts were less than welcome. This came even though Yon Moo Kwan by intent is dedicated to fostering a bettter understanding of the art based on research (GM Myungs' def not mine). If you survey Daito-ryu and Aikido there are dozens of books investigating the philosophy and biomechanics of the arts. Major players such as S Kondo and S Okamoto, S Tohei, S Yamada, - --- the list goes on--- have studied and published regarding their arts. Where are the books by GM Ji, Han Jae, GM Chang Chin Il, GM Kim, Moo-Woong and even GM Choi, himself? I know of 5 sound resources that I could trust to provide a reasonable representation of the Hapkido art, and even these five resources do not agree and they are only a single generation removed from GM Choi!!! I firmly agree that it is always an option to say, "quit the book-beating, just practice". But once in a while I would like to know when we ever get an opportunity to "pull the car over and look under the hood." (Even GM Ji reported that he studied spirituality under an old woman while being trained by "Taoist Lee" in taek kyon. Where are these spiritual teachings now? ) I will even go as far as to say that there are a great many Hapkido practitioners who have likewise gotten to a point where just knowing how to drop somebody on their butt for 15 years or so has become bittersweet. Anyhow, Rudy, that's the way I see it. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Jerry Lynde Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 11:16:21 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Puzzle Mats At 09:13 PM 1/3/2001, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com wrote: >From: Gregory Giddins >Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 08:50:41 -0700 >Subject: the_dojang: Puzzle mats? > >Hi all, Happy New Year/Millenum. > >Does anyone have an opinion on puzzle mats? I see alot of companies selling >them, is anyone using them in their dojang? If so, for how long? And for >what uses? And how are they holding up? We had them at my old dojang. They were great! Easy on the feet, etc. They lasted quite nicely too, as I recall...then again I was only at that dojang for most of a year, so it's hard saying. But, they looked nice the entire time...even after we stacked them in a truck and relocated them for a tournament. >I looked up some old issues of the_dojang and just found a couple references >to them, one being students getting jammed toes from the seams. Anyone else >encounter that? Not in the seams, but just about anywhere on the mats. I "rolled" my toe a time or two and I wasn't the only one. It was pretty common. What would happen is the grippy surface would catch the toe and the rest of the foot would proceed on it's merry way, leaving the toe behind... it's one of those things that hurts for a good couple of weeks. To avoid the rolling toes, I wore shoes during training. That solved the problem immediately and completely. Would I recommend puzzle mats? Definitely! Just watch your toes... if you don't wear shoes, you will roll your toe more than once. I promise. :o) Jer ------------------------------ From: Jerry Lynde Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 11:17:52 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Koans At 09:13 PM 1/3/2001, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com wrote: > He who knows Zen does not speak of Zen. He who speaks of Zen does not > know Zen. We cannot speak of it; we must stand silently and point the > way. The Tao that can be seen is not the true Tao, until you replace the toner cartridge. ;o) Jer ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 12:21:12 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Family Tree Dear Dakin: Thanks for re-posting your tree. The tree that I have been organizing on my site is likewise based on GM Kimms material as well as material from the Jung Ki Kwan Hapkido website. I too have heard quite a few comments about GM Chang Chin Il including that he was designated specifically by GM Choi as a 9th degree with authority over all the Hapkido material in the US. This gets back to my complaint that the previous generation has not been very forthcoming about such things. To make matters worse, the following generation did not do a very good job of supporting the previous generation, either. There are people out there who have paper-trails regarding the leadership and their relationship to it and I wish they would open-up a bit and share. The alternative is that every bozo with a couple hundred dollars can send in a fee (and maybe a video tape) and claim association. Perhaps people like that sort of "flexibility". It does give a lot of wiggle-room when people start asking penetrating questions about the art. I wouldn't mind working with you on your efforts as you have been at this much longer than have I. BTW: I also liked you material in JAMA. Nice work! Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: ConcordTKD@aol.com Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 14:26:31 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #3 Puzzle mats: A friend of mine has a Karate school and he uses these kinds of mats. They seam to work just fine, they stand up to the abuse, are portable, and clean up with a quick vacumm and a damp mop ever once end again. You could also check out the Swain matt site they do have some nice financing terms. John Murphy A-3-756 ITF/USTF TKD ------------------------------ From: Martin Price Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 11:27:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: certification/license of USTU TKD Schools/Instructors Right now there are quite a few people who seem to be extremely upset over the move to certify/license USTU TKD Schools and Instructors. The main furor seems to be the fact that the Kukkiwon certification of Dan levels are being used as a starting point for initial Dan certification. I have seen on another board people raising cane over this. I would like to express my opinions on some of the points and would love to hear others opinions. Opinion one: I feel that the Kukkiwon is an excellent starting point for this certification/license process. Why? Not because everyone who holds a Kukkiwon certificate is perfect (they are not), not because they are all saints (they are not), not because they all have earned the Dan rating (some have not), but because to the majority of TKD practicioners recognize. Opinion Two: I feel that the movement to bring consistancy to TKD colored belt & Dan levels through a USTU certification/license process is a benefit to all TKD schools and students. By standardizing requirements for colored belts and Dan levels students will be able to move from one part of the country to another and by going to a USTU licensed school be assured of maintaining thier belt color or Dan level without some probationary period of endless testing and teaching period of unlearned requirements at the new school. This will prove a benefit to schools/instructors also, because when you have a student show up at your Dojong claiming to have left school X and he was a red belt, you can first of all validate that indeed he had attained this belt and know that your criteria and the school he just left has the same criteria. Opinion three: This one I feel is what many who are complaining about this whole process are worried about, it will stop those who have created their own federation/association with the sole intent of bestowing upon themselves a 9th Dan because they want their students to think they are being taught by a Grand Master, when and if the USTU certification/license process is in place. Enough opinions for now, I look forward to the opinions both pro and con of others. Yours in TKD Martin a Gray Bearded one ___________________________________________________ GO.com Mail Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com ------------------------------ From: RDNHJMS@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 15:12:25 EST Subject: the_dojang: Puzzle mats? <> Greg, Skip buying the mirrors for the walls. Skip buying the advertising or signs for the road. Skip the A/C, heat, punching bags, kicking targets, paint on the walls. But don't go cheap with the flooring system. Swain mats or flooring systems, don't do Hapkido without them. V/R, Rick Nabors ------------------------------ From: "Damian Jones" Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 20:44:35 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: Taekwondo Books Hi list, this is my first post. I was wondering if any of you could give me some opinions on the following Taekwondo books. Taekwondo Textbook ; Vol 1,2,3 ; Kim Jeong Rok Modern Taekwondo: The Official Training Manual ; Soon Man Lee Tae Kwon Do :The State of the art ; Whang The Official Kukkiwon Taekwondo Textbook ; Uhm Woon-Kyu Mastering Taekwondo ; Tae Eun Lee also the books by Kim Daeshik. I am looking for a good reference guide that also includes Korean terminology, history and philosophy. If there are any other books that you recommend, either on Taekwondo or the philosophy of Taekwondo (and other martial arts)I would appreciate any advice. Thanks Damian Jones _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:40:52 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: What is Hapkido? Dear Patrick: I couldn't help but notice that you have selectively, nearly surgically, teased out the comments you responded to from their context. It will be very difficult to exchange ideas with you if you are unable or unwilling to examine what I am saying within the context that it is written. I know it's a convenience to cut&paste and I know that it is senseless to repeat the entire previous message. However, you teased out a single phrase and identified the position as "unreasonable". The only other time I have experienced this approach to discussion was on a previous Net which seemed to specialize in affrontation/contfrontation rather than dialogue. Since there has not been any thing to indicate that there is contention in this discussion, perhaps a more open and balanced examination of what each of us is saying could help, yes? The second sentence you identified is a sterling example of what I am saying. "...Why would yours be right and GM Ji's wrong? Your answer is so broad as to be a non-answer. What does it profit you to NOT have an answer? If you think the Art, some master, some diety of historians, or that nonsense each calls the "truth" is being served, you are mistaken..." Unless I miss my guess you are working very hard to identify aspects of this discussion as "right", "wrong", "good" and "bad". There is nothing I have been able to find in my writing (or anyone elses for that matter) that would indicate a sense or a need to be right or wrong. As far as the "broad" nature of my definition, I can't take responsibility for how the Hapkido, Korean, or Martial Arts community have come to use the term "Hapkido." I didn't make the news, I just reported it. On the other hand, unless I am mis-reading the tenor of your prose ("...some master, some deity of historians or that nonsense each calls the truth"....) there is, perhaps some special issue you have to grind regarding how your position has been used/abused by others. This would be a good opportunity to get out your position rather than deriding anothers', ne? I was thinking as I read your third sentence that perhaps you are not acquainted with GM Jang, In Mok. That's OK as I only recently came to know of him myself. Many people immediately identify GM Choi, Yong Sul as the only person to have brought Daito-ryu back from Japan. Daito-ryu communities indicate that as many as eight Korean names can be found in Daito-ryu records (source: Stanley Pranin, Edit AIKIDO JOURNAL). GM Jang studied under a student of OS Takeda and we are currently working to secure a copy of his cert to ascertain the nature of his study. His art is formally identified as Hapki Yu Sool and, as it is a significant derivation of Daito-ryu, has been moderated by Korean culture and honors the Three Principles of Hapkido I would identify it as a Hapkido art. I was also thinking that by not identifying the GM in your fourth sentence as GM Ji-s peers, at the very least, perhaps it may be worthwhile for you to contact GM Ji and politely request how he would like you deport yourself relative to their standing. It may also save you some embarrassment in front of the rest of the Hapkido community to get some information on exactly who divorced from whom during the reorganization of the late 60-s and 70-s. There is not a lot of information about all this and you would also be helping quite a bit with the research efforts. I also understand your courage in taking what can occasionally be an unpopular position("...I have found that my service to Hapkido puts me in opposition to others, I accept it....") however I also notice that your courage seems to come of taking what could easily be identified as the "safe" position. Your position does not require you to provide any supportive material or information short of "'cause XYZ said so." Inasmuch as you are touting the same generalizations that have been batted about for years with little question, I can't say I find a whole lot of courage in this. If, however, you find questioning Hapkido leadership regarding their responsibilities, attempting to substantiate and define a martial tradition and garner what facts as may be had less than courageous I am somewhat surprised that you do not join in the less threatening activity. It would be, to use your word, "reasonable," yes? I will close with one other observation. I can't find the place where I premised that your position is based on deficiency. Perhaps you could point this out, or perhaps this is only a conclusion you have drawn. My encouragement to you is the same that I offer any Hapkido practitioner including myself. For my part Hapkido is practiced on four levels rather only the physical plane and the intellectual is as valid as the emotional, spiritual OR physical. Whatever competence I have in dropping people on their butts does not speak for much if the same discipline I pressed on my body was not also used to polish my mind, my emotions and my purpose. Which neatly brings me to a complete agreement with you regarding the torch. "...>Let me point out that carrying a torch is mostly; not burning those who passed it to you, not burning yourself, and not burning those you pass it to...". Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 13:15:30 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #5 ****************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.