From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #8 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 5 Jan 2001 Vol 08 : Num 008 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #7 the_dojang: RE: Largest Martial Arts Facility? the_dojang: Sin Moo HKD vs HKD the_dojang: Mats in Taekwon-Do? Re: the_dojang: Sin Moo HKD vs HKD the_dojang: RE: Family Tree the_dojang: Re: What is Hapkido? the_dojang: Re: What is Hapkido? the_dojang: RE: The Right to Question Authority the_dojang: Doju Nim Ji Re: the_dojang: RE: The Right to Question Authority the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~999 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Len White" Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 08:57:04 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #7 Does anyone know anything about a TKD tournament in Galveston Texas on the weekend of January 27? Any info appreciated. TaeKwon Len White ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 09:22:40 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Largest Martial Arts Facility? Meghan wrote: "Does anyone know what the largest martial arts facility in the world is? And how big it is? How about in this country?" I've never heard of anything bigger than the Kodokan in Tokyo. Looks like a medium high-rise apartment building. Eight floors, six dojos, seven dressing rooms, lodging that can accommodate 100 people, spectator seating for around 1000 people, four research labs, conference rooms, a gift shop, and a cafeteria. I think they even have a small branch bank as well as underground parking. Not your typical school on the corner...LOL!!! The dojos by themselves would probably qualify as the largest facility without all the other nice things. Main dojo = 420 mats School dojo = 240 mats International dojo = 192 mats Women's dojo = 240 mats Boy's dojo = 114 mats Special dojo = ??? mats These dojos can be further divided into separate rooms if the need arises. Needless to say, this is undoubtedly the sweetest martial arts facility on the planet. I don't know anything about the Kukkiwon, but I'm sure they've got a nice facility also. Maybe someone else can offer some info on that? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: David Beck Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 15:59:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: the_dojang: Sin Moo HKD vs HKD There are a number of other people on the list that have more experience with Doju JI, Sin Moo HKD, etc; but I think I'll jump in here with my 2 cents... Chris Stiller wrote: > >Perhaps I misunderstand, but I have always heard the Hapkido taught by >Grandmaster Ji, Han Jae as "Sin Moo Hapkido." So, while he might lay claim >to being the founder of Hapkido it seems, at least to me, that he in fact >DOES make a qualification as to the art he teaches. > >Maybe this is just to make it clear as to WHICH Hapkido is taught by GM Ji. >Something like "Sin Moo Hapkido" = "Original Hapkido" or "Hapkido founded by >GM Ji." and then later: > >It seems that the people who say GM Ji founded Hapkido view it this way: > >GM Choi = yawara -> GM Ji = yawara + kicking and some other new things = >Hapkido. > >Meanwhile, those who think GM Choi founded Hapkido view it as: > >GM Choi = yawara -> Hapkido due to a name change (either "given" by GM Ji or >even before this according to Suh Bok Sub) -> GM Ji taking Hapkido and >adding some things and coming up with "Sin Moo Hapkido." I think there IS a little bit of a misunderstanding here. The Hapkido that Doju JI teaches NOW is Sin Moo Hapkido -- which Doju JI started about 1981 or so. Most of the HKD lineage that comes via Doju JI is from what he was teaching in the early 60's, not Sin Moo HKD. That is yawara + kicking + weapons + ... and then Bruce W. Sims wrote (among lots! of other things): >I firmly agree that it is always an option to say, "quit the book-beating, >just practice". But once in a while I would like to know when we ever get an >opportunity to "pull the car over and look under the hood." (Even GM Ji >reported that he studied spirituality under an old woman while being trained >by "Taoist Lee" in taek kyon. Where are these spiritual teachings now? ) In Sin Moo HKD. In fact, the stress on those spiritual teachings (the Nine Rules) is the main difference between Sin Moo HKD and other kinds of Hapkido. The physical techniques are essentially the same. David N. Beck Internet:dbeck@usa.alcatel.com WATT Lead Engineer Alcatel USA 1000 Coit Road Plano, Texas 75075 ** Opinions expressed are not those of Alcatel USA ** ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 15:31:20 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: Mats in Taekwon-Do? Speaking as a Taekwon-Do practitioner, I was wondering if someone can enlighten me as to why so many Taekwon-Do dojangs have mats. I can definitely see it for Hapkido, Kuk Sool, et. al. but the only time we use mats at my instructor's school is during Ho Sin Sool practice (when people are actually getting thrown to the ground). The few times I have actually sparred on a mat have been less than fun and, it seems to me, the mats actually made falling MORE likely to happen. When I have seen someone fall during free sparring there was never an injury as a result and mats always seemed superfluous to me for this reason. Maybe this has something to do with insurance companies? Any insights would be appreciated. Taekwon, Chris "Every experience of beauty points to infinity." Hans Urs von Balthasar _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 7:57:40 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: Sin Moo HKD vs HKD > I think there IS a little bit of a misunderstanding here. The Hapkido that > Doju JI teaches NOW is Sin Moo Hapkido -- which Doju JI started about 1981 or > so. Most of the HKD lineage that comes via Doju JI is from what he was > teaching in the early 60's, not Sin Moo HKD. Right, from the late 50s on... His Kwan in Korea was the Sung Moo Kwan. He first used the name An Moo Kwan, but then fairly quickly changed the Kwan's name to Sung Moo. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Carsten Jorgensen Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:30:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: RE: Family Tree Me: >>Does anybody have the address for Dakin's 'MA family tree?' << >Yes, it is still up at: http://php.indiana.edu/~burdickd/hapkido.htm < Thanks, Dakin - I saw it a while back, just never got around to writing to you. Of course I'm mainly interested in my lineage so it's interesting that you put GM Suh as a student of GM Choi, but not GM Lee - and also that you put GM Lee as a student of GM Suh... Could you explain the reason? I don't think anybody are saying that GM Suh was a student of GM Choi? Bruce: >>The fact that the previous generations hopped around from teacher to teacher like fleas on a hotplate does not make the job easier, but I suppose it underscores the need to try. << I've heard people say that before but I've never understood the reason? Do you have any examples of early masters who changed teachers? Carsten Jorgensen hwarangdo@email.com Copenhagen, Denmark - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ------------------------------ From: Carsten Jorgensen Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:42:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: What is Hapkido? Me: >>They all used different names (none of which were Hapkido) and they all taught different things based on their experience. . .<< Patrick: >>> And some used the Hapkido name (in addition to theirs) to show their affiliation. But they might have removed it when they broke with that affiliation.<<< Sorry Patrick. GM Choi taught Yawara and the original students used that name or something similar, for instance Jusool (Jusool/JuJutsu and Yawara are the same Chinese Characters). It wasn't until around 1961 people started using the Hapkido name. > It is enough that SGM Lee demands a distinction. Let him have it. But the slap at Hapkido was unforunate. I wonder what GM Pelligrini would have to say about this? :) I don't know what GM Pelligrini has to do with this? But Hwarang Do *is* very distinct from other Korean styles (note I didn't say Hapkido). Oh oh, this is going to cost me a few hours - too bad GM Lee hasn't released some of the videos. >> Today - Hapkido is what GM Ji says it is. As distressing as some may find it. << Of course Patrick is talking about GM Ji's style (Shin Mu Kwan Hapkido) and lineage. Again, the reason why people gets upset - and why Patrick don't understand why people disagree with him - is that everybody are thinking about their own style... There is not one style called Hapkido and there never were. >>And as soon as GM Seo, GM Suh, and SGM Lee bow low (one of those Korean traditions) and dump the Chinese influence, perhaps GM Ji will allow them to reclaim the Hapkido heritage they divorced themselves from. =:) << How would you define "the Hapkido heritage"? But it's nice to see that you agree that Hwarang Do is not Hapkido, (Of course this is bait to see if you actually read GM Lee's history :-) Anyway, the Chinese influence will probably be dropped the same day day GM Ji dumps the Japanese influence on his style. >>Long answer: Either you accept that GM Choi was the founder of Hapkido, or you can continue to offer up Jang (I still don't know which Jang). Either Yawara is Hapkido, Yu sool is Hapkido, or Hapkido is Hapkido - choose. << GM Choi was the founder of Yawara, Yu Sool is Yawara, Hapkido is Hapkido (but there are many different styles). And then you have styles, like Hwarang Do, which have been influenced by Yawara but is not Hapkido. It sounds complex, but it's really not. Carsten Jorgensen hwarangdo@email.com Copenhagen, Denmark - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ------------------------------ From: Carsten Jorgensen Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:45:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: What is Hapkido? Bruce: >> Had many of the leaders of the Hapkido community done a better job in leadership by honestly transmitting the art with all of its shortcomings and blemishes, perhaps many people would not have to "question and nudge". << I'm quite happy that GM Lee keeps developing Hwarang Do, what would the point of transmitting shortcomings be? "Leaders of the Hapkido community" - well everybody were teaching different things when they started using the Hapkido name, that's one of the reasons why the styles were never united as the "Taekwondo" styles were. They were just too different. Are you thinking about any particular community? >> Did you think it was because only GM Ji and GM Choi brought the mixing of Daito-ryu and Korean martial tradition to the world? GM Jang has been teaching "hapkido" (spec Hapki yu sool) since the end of WW II and has his own lineage of Hapkido tradition. << Sorry sidetrack, let's get back to the history :-) Carsten Jorgensen hwarangdo@email.com Copenhagen, Denmark - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 09:52:49 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The Right to Question Authority Dear Ray: "....> The five most commonly asked questions I have found are as follows. > ... Ummm, you MUST be kidding..." No, actually, Ray, I'm not kidding. You would be amazed at the number of times in talking with someone on a phone, or writing an e-mail, or responding to some contribution on a Net some person raises as aspect of one of these questions. Now, I have to tell you that the list is actually closer to "the 20 Most Commonly Asked Questions" and a great number of those questions have more to do with rank and certification and politics and are pretty much embarrrassing. The point is not to embarrass here. The issue here, the way I see it, is whether or not people are going to get off the dime and talk about things that have been bothering them for years and whether or not leadership figures are going to ante-up and meet their responsibilities for answering those concerns. If I can play Patrick for just a moment, the answer is really very simple (Sorry, Patrick) Either leadership is going to present themselves as leadership material and accept responsibility for all the information and guidance that entails Or Hapkido Leadership is going to expose itself for the dereliction of its duties and abandonment of Hapikdo practitioners except when there is a commercial interest (revenues from rank, seminars, testing, etc.). IMPE, I have sat around tables into the evening hours and over breakfasts on Saturday mornings and watched people try to make sense of issues that could be resolved with the type of candid interview GM Choi (TKD) did a while back. What sticks out is that not only do the same concerns keep coming up, but the same solutions are suggested over and over---why don't the Hapkido leaders go on record about this stuff? Now, whatever people might think of GM Lee (HwaRangdo), GM Myung (WHF), GM Seo (KSW) and GM Kimm (HanMuDo) at least they put the truth out there for all to see in black and white in their books and interviews and magazine articles.. Advocates of GM Ji such as Patrick would like the Hapkido community to accept that he is the alpha and omega of the art. OK. Here is an opportunity for him to meet his responsibilities as a leader and provide much needed guidance. I'll close this little diatribe off by invoking the Chinese tradition known as the Mandate of Heaven. Some of you are familiar with this and know that it is the tradition by which a Chinese emperor drew his authority and required that the emperor receive absolute deference and support from his subjects. However, the flip-side was that those emperors were also required to provide for the care and welfare of their subjects. Failure to do so meant loss of the mandate and short trip out of the palace. Why should supporters of GM Ji and Hapkido practitioners in general expect anything less of GM Ji? Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: mtomlins@mail.volusia.k12.fl.us Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:57:16 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Doju Nim Ji Mr. Sims, Instead of "assuming" what Doju Nim would say or asking someone to speak for him why don't you just contact him and talk to him yourself? In doing historical research about Hapkido it would seem to me that the best sources are not some book written already on the subject but the actual living breathing people that were alive and at ground zero so to speak when everything was formulated. Wouldn't this help you if you are truly trying to find the truth? Michael Tomlinson ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 8:48:44 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: RE: The Right to Question Authority > "....> The five most commonly asked questions I have found are as follows. > > ... > > Ummm, you MUST be kidding..." > > No, actually, Ray, I'm not kidding. You would be amazed at the number of > times in talking with someone on a phone, or writing an e-mail, or > responding to some contribution on a Net some person raises as aspect of one > of these questions. Actually, I would not be amazed. Do you think after several years of this list being around and umpteen years more in the arts that there are any (many?) new questions that come up? Nada. In most all cases the answers to the questions you post are only of interest to those that (1) either do not understand human nature, or (2) are not spending enough time training, or (3) are trying to understand things that will probably never be well understood. If you really want to visit/interview DoJu JI or someone else to ask some of these questions, then do it. Why ask why it hasn't been done before if you will not even do it? Perhaps it hasn't been done before because no one really cared enough to do it. Or perhaps they already realize the questions already have obvious answers, or at least partial answers. DoJu JI's phone and address have been given here several times before. He will chat with you, but you might have a little difficultly in conversing easily with him as his English isn't perfect. But don't be surprised if you just get a broad smile of disbelief from him or ANY of the others wrt some of these 'most common' questions that you make reference to. IMHO Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 8:49:32 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #8 ****************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.