From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #9 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 5 Jan 2001 Vol 08 : Num 009 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #7 the_dojang: GM Suh and GM Choi, the Hapkido Lineage Tree the_dojang: A LONG post of "What is Hapkido?" Re: the_dojang: A LONG post of "What is Hapkido?" the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #8 the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #8 the_dojang: Re: Books/Daeshik Kim the_dojang: RE: Hidden Motives Re: the_dojang: RE: Hidden Motives the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~999 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chris Hamilton" Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 11:21:13 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #7 Good gussy! You guys must be slammin it pretty hard around there. Just kidding Miss Illona, I'm not familiar with a "crash" mat, I seem to crash on any mat. We just got Swain mats about 6 months ago. Although they are a little firmer than what we had before, they provide adequate protection and better footing. Chris H. Han Mu Do ------------------------------ From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 12:32:36 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: GM Suh and GM Choi, the Hapkido Lineage Tree Carsten Jorgensen wrote: Thanks, Dakin - I saw it a while back, just never got around to writing to you. Of course I'm mainly interested in my lineage so it's interesting that you put GM Suh as a student of GM Choi, but not GM Lee - and also that you put GM Lee as a student of GM Suh... Could you explain the reason? I don't think anybody are saying that GM Suh was a student of GM Choi? My Reply: Certainly Dr. Kimm has not. However, I have heard this from other sources, or at least that GM Suh learned from students of GM Choi. That is from my own sources. That GM Joo-Bang Lee was a student of GM Suh IS one of the things that Dr. Kimm wrote, undoubtedly because Dr. Kimm is/was associated with Kuksulwon. I know that GM Lee would no doubt blow a gasket if he heard this said, but at some level I have to go with my gut feeling and what little support I can get from the printed word. I won't get into who seems like a better martial artist or all that, but it sure would help if the Kuksul and Hwarangdo folks would post those photos from the 1960s they keep saying they'll put up! It sure would help us out in figuring out where the links lay. I should also point out that Bob Duggan's page (although I know you disagree with Bob) has?/had? a photo that showed a promotion at GM Lee's school where he is standing in front of a Kuksulwon emblem. That seemed like pretty convincing evidence to me, especially due to my own experiences researching the history of In-Sok Pak. But that is a whole other can of worms in itself, so let's not go there right now. For now, let me just ask that Carsten, in his efficient method, post a response defending GM Lee and then we can call it a day, ok? Unless someone has some new evidence? Take care folks! Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 18:22:26 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: A LONG post of "What is Hapkido?" I thought I'd just toss a couple of observations into the discussion regarding Hapkido's history, naming, etc. Bruce Simms said: > >The name, any name, never made an art -- practicing made the arts.< >True - but the argument is not about the name, but about content and who >gets to dictate. To which I would say: Exactly. So I can only partially agree when people say, "Just concentrate of training, it doesn't matter who came up with this stuff or from where." That's like saying, "Just enjoy your parents and siblings. Don't worry about who your grandparents are." It might not be imperative to know this information, but it's a NORMAL desire on everyone's part. I asked: ><"Hapkido" >to GM Choi does anyone know what he means by this?>> To which Rick Nabors replied: >Dojunim says that he began using the name Hapkido in Seoul because it >shorter >than Hapki Yu Kwon Sool, and more identifiable by the general public, since >the names Tang Soo Do, Soo Bak Do, etc. had been around for a while. > >GM Ji's dojang and teachings became very popular in Seoul after he began >using this name. He "gave" the name to his teacher Choi Yong Sul by >suggesting that he also use the name as it would be more popular and >identifiable than Hapki Yu Kwon Sool, Yu Sool, Hapki Yu Sool, etc. To which I would say: But did GM Ji "give" the name Hapkido to GM Choi expecting him to teach the exact same thing as GM Ji was? I would seriously doubt it. Here, it seems to me is an important distinction to be made. GM Ji has, in effect, caused this confusion if he gave the name to GM Choi. He basically said for GM Choi to use the name "Hapkido" for a DIFFERENT art than his own Hapkido. Besides this, Master Suh Bok Sub has claimed in an interview with Master Wollmershauser in "Taekwon-Do Times" that GM Choi decided to use the name Hapkido BEFORE GM Ji had come up with it. Make of this what you will. Personally, I don't know. You cannot prove that this is untrue (can't prove a negative), you can only prove that it is true or that there are not good enough reasons to believe it. Bruce Sims said: > >Perhaps you could share with me what it is about GM Ji >that makes you think that he has exclusivity to Hapkido. Did you think it >was because he is attributed with coming up with the name? According to a >history by David Middleton (Australian Hapkido Group) in an interview GM Ji >reported that he ""gave" the name 'hapkido" to GM Choi "out of respect" and >apparently GM Choi used it to some limited degree for the balance of his >career.< To which Patrick replied: >Short answer: Someone or everyone - I choose someone. > >Long answer: Either you accept that GM Choi was the founder of Hapkido, or >you can continue to offer up Jang (I still don't know which Jang). To which I reply: GM Jang, In Mok was another Korean who learned Daito-ryu Aikijutsu while in Japan. Patrick (cont.): Either >Yawara is Hapkido, Yu sool is Hapkido, or Hapkido is Hapkido - choose. >Once >you choose, then GM Ji is either the answer or not. Stories about who >allowed who to do what with what, when (regardless of accuracy) do not >change "what is Hapkido". Whether you choose Yawara, Yu sool, or Hapkido, >then the GMs for the "not Hapkidos" (ie Kuk sool, Hwarangso, Han pul) are >also NOT the answer. To which I would ask: Aren't yawara and yu sool simply different words for jujutsu? It seems that the basic question is - is the daito ryu that was brought back to Korea Hapkido? (Or at least the foundations of Hapkido.) Bruce Sims said: > >Did you think it was because only GM Ji is descended from GM Choi in the > >Hapkido tradition. So far I have counted over 30 individuals who can >trace > >their lineage back to GM Choi and or GM Ji and they all most freely use >the > >term "hapkido" . . . then sub-qualify by kwan.< Patrick said: >If lineage to Choi is critical to be "Hapkido" then we can abandon the Jang >line, OK? To which I would say: Actually, since BOTH GM Choi and GM Jang studied Daito-Ryu then there is a good reason to include Jang, In Mok's lineage. He and GM Choi were both teaching, if not the same art, arts that are derivatives of Daito-Ryu. Lineage can be from a person or an art (see below). Patrick said: I will assume that those juniors that trace themselves to GM Ji, >are not part of the "What is Hapkido?" cunumdrum you find yourself in. >Additions to Hapkido identified as Kwan specific are not part of the >question "What is Hapkido?" If you desire to add "Tibetian Ox Throwing" >the "real" precursor of "Tibetian gopher tossing" in your Kwan that is your >decision. (with apologies to Master West). To which I would say: I am not sure about this. When a new legitimate koryu bujutsu ryu-ha is developed in Japanese arts it is recognized as an offshoot of its parent art. It isn't viewed as worse than the parent art, just different to some extent. But it is still a type of that art. As a more recent example, Kodokan Judo and Konsai Judo are BOTH Judo, but Konsai is a derivative of Kodokan. I said: >Perhaps I misunderstand, but I have always heard the Hapkido taught by >Grandmaster Ji, Han Jae as "Sin Moo Hapkido." So, while he might lay claim >to being the founder of Hapkido it seems, at least to me, that he in fact >DOES make a qualification as to the art he teaches. > >Maybe this is just to make it clear as to WHICH Hapkido is taught by GM Ji. >Something like "Sin Moo Hapkido" = "Original Hapkido" or "Hapkido founded >by >GM Ji." >It seems that the people who say GM Ji founded Hapkido view it this way: > >GM Choi = yawara -> GM Ji = yawara + kicking and some other new things = >Hapkido. > >Meanwhile, those who think GM Choi founded Hapkido view it as: > >GM Choi = yawara -> Hapkido due to a name change (either "given" by GM Ji >or >even before this according to Suh Bok Sub) -> GM Ji taking Hapkido and >adding some things and coming up with "Sin Moo Hapkido." To which Dave Beck responded: I think there IS a little bit of a misunderstanding here. The Hapkido that Doju JI teaches NOW is Sin Moo Hapkido -- which Doju JI started about 1981 or so. Most of the HKD lineage that comes via Doju JI is from what he was teaching in the early 60's, not Sin Moo HKD. That is yawara + kicking + weapons + ... To which I ask: So, GM Ji founded Hapkido in 1961(?) and then founded Sin Moo Hapkido in 1981? I was under the impression that this was merely a name change to distinguish his Hapkido from that of the GM Choi branch (GM Chin, Il Chang; M. Wollmershauser; GM Rim, etc.). Perhaps I have misunderstood. Ray added: Right, from the late 50s on... His Kwan in Korea was the Sung Moo Kwan. He first used the name An Moo Kwan, but then fairly quickly changed the Kwan's name to Sung Moo. To which I have to ask: But is a Kwan name equated with an art? It seems, and I could be misunderstanding here, that first GM Ji had Sung Moo Hapkido and then he had Sin Moo Hapkido. But were they different arts, or is Sin Moo an evolution/improvement of Sung Moo? Bruce Sims said: >I firmly agree that it is always an option to say, "quit the book-beating, >just practice". But once in a while I would like to know when we ever get >an >opportunity to "pull the car over and look under the hood." To which I have to add a hearty "Amen!" I enjoy some good, dispassionate historical research. All too often you hear people say things like "Well, you'll never know for sure so don't even bother to ask about it." It seems that a lot of the time (not always, and not in this discussion) what they REALLY are saying is: "We disagree about this." But there is a big difference between disagreement and ignorance of facts. I have to agree with Mr. Sims that an indepth interview with some of the senior Hapkidoin (or several interviews) would do a lot to clear up things. Thanks for taking the time to read this ridiculously long post from a non-Hapkido man. Taekwon, Chris "Every experience of beauty points to infinity." Hans Urs von Balthasar _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 12:08:39 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: A LONG post of "What is Hapkido?" > >GM Ji's dojang and teachings became very popular in Seoul after he began > >using this name. He "gave" the name to his teacher Choi Yong Sul by > >suggesting that he also use the name as it would be more popular and > >identifiable than Hapki Yu Kwon Sool, Yu Sool, Hapki Yu Sool, etc. > > To which I would say: > But did GM Ji "give" the name Hapkido to GM Choi expecting him to teach the > exact same thing as GM Ji was? I would seriously doubt it. I would doubt it, too. My take on it is that Hapkido became popular in Korea primarily due to GM Ji's efforts and his political power (as head of the Blue House Security). GM Choi taught private lessons, charged great sums of $$ for lessons, and his art was not spreading widely and quickly. But GM Ji's art, now widely known as Hapkido, was spreading widely and quickly and thus, in order to help out his original instructor, suggested to GM Choi that he/Choi use the name Hapkido to help gain more students. IMHO. > Here, it seems to me is an important distinction to be made. GM Ji has, in > effect, caused this confusion if he gave the name to GM Choi. He basically > said for GM Choi to use the name "Hapkido" for a DIFFERENT art than his own > Hapkido. Was the Tang Soo Do taught at the Chung Do Kwan the same as the Tang Soo Do taught at the Moo Duk Kwan? Similar, but I suspect rather different. But perhaps he did cause confusion by doing the above, but then hindsight is 20/20. Whatever he did probably made good sense at the time. > To which I reply: > GM Jang, In Mok was another Korean who learned Daito-ryu Aikijutsu while in > Japan. Can you provide more info on GM Jang, and other Koreans that we know learned Daito-Ryu Aiki-JJ? We know they are out there, we also know that GM Choi has difficultly proving that he actually studied Daito-Ryu, right? Again I submit we know of GM Choi because he was the original instructor of GM Ji. Please do not take this as a statement of disrespect for GM Choi. That is not my intention. But GM Ji, DoJu Ji, is very open about the fact that he gained fame and power and a LARGE following too early in life, i.e. when he was only in his 20s. Few people will well handle extreme power and influence that early in life. So I submit that had these other folks that learned Daito-ryu had been GM Ji's first instructor, we would be talking of them now and not GM Choi. > To which I have to ask: > But is a Kwan name equated with an art? It seems, and I could be > misunderstanding here, that first GM Ji had Sung Moo Hapkido and then he had > Sin Moo Hapkido. But were they different arts, or is Sin Moo an > evolution/improvement of Sung Moo? Sin Moo Hapkido is an evolution of the Hapkido taught in the Sung Moo Kwan. DoJu Ji has said that the Hapkido he taught in Korea was primarily an art of self-defense and an art to hurt others. He now views his Hapkido, Sin Moo Hapkido, with more of the "Do" aspects that we might normally attribute to Dr. Kano's original thinking, i.e. a way to improve ones' self. Or at least that is my understanding of DoJu Ji's thinking. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:02:06 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #8 Dear Carsten: "...I'm quite happy that GM Lee keeps developing Hwarang Do, what would the point of transmitting shortcomings be?..." Despite how critical I can be of GM Lee and many of his statements in the recent interview I support anyone who continues to put the effort into his art that he does. I don't think I literally meant that people should intend to promote the blemishes and shortcomings of their art. Rather, my thought was that the tendency to work to make an art all things to all people needs to be balanced with what the art is not as well. Hapkido arts are not Gracie ju-jitsu. Despite the fact that GJJ is very effective and very popular right now does not lend license to Hapkido leadership to suddenly acquire some Judo ground techniques and offer them as though they have always been incorporated in the curriculum. Does Hapkido have ground techniques? Sure, but nothing in the order of GJJ and I think one would do well to be honest enough to own that. TKD people are often pressed to admit they do not have the throws and locks of HKD despite the similarity in kicks. The Shotokan people must accept that they simply don't have the versatility in kick that their TKD cousins have. Flippng the coin over, though, recognizing where HKD does not do something as well as another art is a good start towards improving the sophistication of the art. I can't know this for sure but I suspect that this is what GM Lee had in mind when he reported that he had "visited other schools" in Korea to expand his understanding. "..."Leaders of the Hapkido community" - well everybody were teaching different things when they started using the Hapkido name, that's one of the reasons why the styles were never united as the "Taekwondo" styles were....." I'll accept that point as it is seen now, but back in the earlier days there is a lot more to suggest that what people were learning was more similar that different. With time I suspect the differences were enhanced and even emphacised (different uniforms, and ettiquette and leadership). At a seminar I see "pinky-up", "pinky-down" but the overall biomechanics of the techniques is very similar. Moo Sool Kwan uses right hand only and Jung Ki Kwan still identifies itself a "hapki yu sool". I have a hard time believing that the only thing that is keeping these folks apart is being able to decide who gets to be the grand poo-bah and how to divide up the money and the territories. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:25:47 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #8 Dear Carsten: ".....I've heard people say that before but I've never understood the reason? Do you have any examples of early masters who changed teachers?..." I think the clearest way to show this is the way the trees that Dakin and I have been organizing. Both of us have used Dr. Kimms' material, though I have also used material from GM Lim (Jung Ki Kwan) as a bit of a supplement. In both Dakins' and my tree (more so in Dakins) there are more than a few GM who moved from instruction under GM Choi/GM Suh, Bok Sub to GM Kim and then followed to GM In Hyuk Suh. I remember one of the individuals was Kim, Woo tak and there were others (I'm at my office and don't have the tree handy). GM Lee (HwaRangDo) had Su Ahm Dosa, GM Choi and GM Kim, Moo-woong. Dr Kimm by his own report, spent time with just about every notable GM including GM Choi, Ji and I.H. Suh. This is not a criticism. In fact, I am beginning to think that such collective, consensus-driven evaluation of various techniques, philosophies and biomechanics by a informal quorum rather than an individual or succession of individuals (as in the Japanese Koryu Tradition) may be a fundamental factor (a basic quality) in the Korean Martial tradition. The problem comes in when the consensus group breaks up and everyone wants credit for being the well-spring into which other (lesser) minds dipped their intellectual cups. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Shaun M. Fortune" Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 14:34:06 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Books/Daeshik Kim >------------------------------ > >From: "Damian Jones" >Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 20:44:35 -0000 >Subject: the_dojang: Taekwondo Books > >Hi list, this is my first post. > >I was wondering if any of you could give me some opinions on the following >Taekwondo books. * * * snip * * * >also the books by Kim Daeshik. >Thanks >Damian Jones Since you mentioned Kim specifically, I would recommend "The Way To Go" if you haven't already read it. Maybe you already have and I would be interested in the opinions of others who read this book. It was a little dry in places, kind of like my college philosophy class. But there was a wealth of great information and a viewpoint that I found was often very close to my own. I'm looking forward to hearing others' reviews of this book. Also a review of "Martial Meditations" by the same author would be most appreciated. I asked for it for Xmas and my mother tried to track it down. She couldn't find it and I want to know if it is worth the effort. (Judging from "The Way To Go", I would guess it is.) Thank you, Shaun M. Fortune Taekwondo/hapkido _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:43:03 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Hidden Motives Dear Michael and Ray: I agree with both of you. The best approach from a research standpoint would be to approach GM Ji and address matters directly, patiently and completely in private. It would follow that a work would be completed and submitted for his approval before bringing it before the Hapkido community. However, I also want to point out that approach would only address the first half of the issues I have raised-What is Hapkido? The second half of the issues are those of active engagement of Hapkido leadership with the population of practitioners and wouldn't this be a spiffy time to do that? I don't believe it is incumbant on each and every Hapkido practiitioner to seek out GM Ji 1:1 to get his questions answered. I do believe that it is the responsibility of a leader to lead and that means being pro-active in his leadership. In our modern age of electronic communication that could include televised round-table discussions among GM, individual interviews, web sites and more. How is it that after 15 years of Hapkido study I just now hear someone mention an aspect of spiritual training which delineates Sin Moo Hapkido from others? After how many discussions, visits to websites and books read I just now am introduced to the existence of 9 tenents? Since the embodiment of Hapkido is apparently painfully silent on his own art, perhaps some kind soul could take pity on me and expand on this new information not found elsewhere. Thanks. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 16:09:06 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: RE: Hidden Motives > I do believe that it is the responsibility of a leader to lead and that > means being pro-active in his leadership. In our modern age of electronic > communication that could include televised round-table discussions among GM, > individual interviews, web sites and more. How is it that after 15 years of > Hapkido study I just now hear someone mention an aspect of spiritual > training which delineates Sin Moo Hapkido from others? After how many > discussions, visits to websites and books read I just now am introduced to > the existence of 9 tenents? Sorry, for being short before. Moving on... My take on it is that the above would be great were it to occur, but IMHO it is NOT reasonable to expect that it would occur. Martial arts Masters & GMs, especially those 55 or 65+ years old, are typically more adept in teaching and propagating their art thru traditional means, i.e. interpersonal and direct contact with students and other instructors. But the info is available and has been available, including via this list and probably others. I first learned of the teachings of Sin Moo probably 10 or 11 years ago by simply going to meet GM Ji. He was a gracious host and took time to chat with me even tho it was the first time he had laid eyes on me. If you had joined this list ~6 years ago you would have heard of the 9 rules of Sin Moo, GM Ji, etc, and there was probably info on the Internet re same prior to that. But all of these are limited in scope and only so many can and will be reached. Yes? No? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 16:10:23 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #9 ****************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.