From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #11 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sat, 6 Jan 2001 Vol 08 : Num 011 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: KKW Text book the_dojang: Tiffin Mats the_dojang: AAU Coaches the_dojang: Hapkido History the_dojang: WHat is Hapkido? Re: the_dojang: Hapkido History the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #10 the_dojang: re: Mats in Taekwon-Do? the_dojang: Yet MORE on "What is Hapkido" the_dojang: Defending GM Lee :-) the_dojang: History etc Re: the_dojang: Yet MORE on "What is Hapkido" the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~999 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Migukyong@aol.com Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 10:46:16 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: KKW Text book Melinda is right.. this book is simply awesome it covers the taegeuks, palgwe, yudanja poomse, and all kinds of other things. Melinda, in mine though it lists un yong kim as writer on the last page... was it indeed written by um kyu um? frank ------------------------------ From: "hununpa" Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 12:36:05 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Tiffin Mats Dear Miss Illona, That's new brand to me, Tiffin, could you give more info on pricing and distributers, a web site perhaps. I know some on the list are opposed to "plugs", but others on the list may also be intersted. Looking forward to an on or off list reply :-) Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TSD P.S. On Puzzle Mats, IMHO if you are training on a concrete floor some kind of padding will lengthen you knee lifespan.... That includes us kick-punch arts like TSD/TKD. It also helps prevent or lessen injuries from unplanned falls... Most insurance carriers require a written copy of your sparring rules, and a questionaire about what you teach. Odly enough, they are more concerned about kicking motions to the head than joint manipulations and airwheels :-) Go figure, neh... Shop Safely Online Without a Credit Card http://www.rocketcash.com ------------------------------ From: "hununpa" Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 12:46:01 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: AAU Coaches Dear Gary, I am also an AAU school (at least this year). I like to have some insurance and am trying to keep overhead low :-) However, we have had only one AAU-TKD tourney a year here in Georgia. The good thing about closed competition is most players understand the rules, and with proper training for judges, the rules tend to be administered fairly and consistently. But open competition tends to draw more players and lowers the price to compete (and percentage for overhead). When AAU asks coaches to pay fees, they are actually asking us to subsidize the true cost of a closed competition instead of passing it through to the players. Given the choice, most competitors in the southeast would pay $75 for two events at The Battle of Atlanta, but would be shocked if you asked for that much for a 100 to 200 player AAU competition....who can figure gups, neh? Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TSD Shop Safely Online Without a Credit Card http://www.rocketcash.com ------------------------------ From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 12:54:22 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido History Wow! What a lot to read! But it is GREAT to see everyone talking to each other in a gracious manner; that's what I think the martial arts should be all about. Ray wrote: My take on it is that Hapkido became popular in Korea primarily due to GM Ji's efforts and his political power (as head of the Blue House Security). GM Choi taught private lessons, charged great sums of $$ for lessons, and his art was not spreading widely and quickly. My response: I agree completely Ray. I think the efforts of GM Ji and the other instructors associated with the Presidential Bodyguard was essential for the spread of hapkido. But the political instability in Korea has meant that close ties to politics has also caused great instability in hapkido ranks as well. After Pres. Cheong-Heui Pak's assassination, GM Ji spent a year in prison. Other hapkido organizations came to power. President Du-Hwan Cheon had many members of the Korean Hapkido Association in his Bodyguard, but when Pres. D'ae-U No took power in 1988, Kyung-Whan Cheon of the KHA was similarly put into prison. Many KHA members then switched to either the Korea Kido Hwe or the IHF. Ray also said: Can you provide more info on GM Jang, and other Koreans that we know learned Daito-Ryu Aiki-JJ? We know they are out there, we also know that GM Choi has difficultly proving that he actually studied Daito-Ryu, right? My response: One of the stories regarding Inn-Seok Pak was that his father was a Japanese practitioner of Daito-ryu and that Pak's early training came from that direction. This also explains why Pak's life was not a very happy one. Having a Japanese father and Korean mother and born probably in 1938, he found himself stuck between two peoples who hated each other's guts. Carsten wrote: "...I'm quite happy that GM Lee keeps developing Hwarang Do, what would the point of transmitting shortcomings be?..." Bruce replied: Hapkido arts are not Gracie ju-jitsu. Despite the fact that GJJ is very effective and very popular right now does not lend license to Hapkido leadership to suddenly acquire some Judo ground techniques and offer them as though they have always been incorporated in the curriculum. Does Hapkido have ground techniques? Sure, but nothing in the order of GJJ and I think one would do well to be honest enough to own that. My response: I have to agree with Carsten on this one. Development and change in a martial art is ESSENTIAL. "Ars longa, vita brevis" (art is long, life is short) tells us that no one person can know all there is about an art. That means that EVERY transmission of an art is incomplete and that therefore it is essential that every martial artist continue to develop his/her art and make it more complete. Rather like Sisyphus pushing a rock up the hill, but essential to being able to teach the best art one can. An art is what you make it. If you are not making it more complete, then it is not a fighting art, but is rather a folk practice, a sport, or simple theater. Secondly, I have to say that I think hapkido's ground fighting techniques are certainly "in the order of GJJ." Gracie jujutsu, IMHO, is a sport style, albeit a very advanced one. The hapkido groundfighting that I've seen is purely combat oriented and holds up just fine to anything the Gracies have shown the public. I have no idea what they do behind closed doors, but I imagine it is much the same. Under duress, we do what we practice, and we've seen the Gracies under duress many times over the 1990s. Bruce wrote: In fact, I am beginning to think that such collective, consensus-driven evaluation of various techniques, philosophies and biomechanics by a informal quorum rather than an individual or succession of individuals (as in the Japanese Koryu Tradition) may be a fundamental factor (a basic quality) in the Korean Martial tradition. The problem comes in when the consensus group breaks up and everyone wants credit for being the well-spring into which other (lesser) minds dipped their intellectual cups. My reply: I agree completely, especially when it comes to hapkido history. I think the sharing of information during the 1960s between the various leaders of hapkido, hwarangdo, kuksulwon, etc. gave those arts their vitality. Ray wrote of GM Ji: He was a gracious host and took time to chat with me even tho it was the first time he had laid eyes on me. My reply: Let me add my praise of GM Ji. I've only worked with him once but he was a wonderful instructor. During that time I watched him work with a young yellow belt on snake lock (nikyo). GM Ji was then in his 60s, but he insisted that this young kid crank on him until he got it right. That act alone would have won my admiration. He's a real martial arts treasure! Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: LAHapkido@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 12:54:56 EST Subject: the_dojang: WHat is Hapkido? All this talk of Hapkido history has my mind spinning, first lets talk about the relationship between GM Suh, In Huh and SGM Lee, Joo Bang. SGM Lee, did spend time training with GM Suh, In Huh and Doju Choi,Yong Sul however he does not consider them his Sa Bum's, as so did many other Masters of that time. It was not uncommon for Martial Artist in Korea to go from one Dojang to another to try and better understand the Fighting aspects of a particular system. This story is old news and if you were to asked SGM Lee,Joo Bang, he would tell you that this is true. He as well as all of the earlier GM's that have been discussed in the dialog trained with each other at some point in their training. The problem seems to be getting anyone to agree with that statement. I think that if you were to ask any of these GM's, did you train with So and So? They would be more inclined to give you an answer instead of was So and So your teacher. When a person selects someone as their SaBum they give total credit to that person as the individual that has made the most significant contribution to the development of their skill. This does not mean they respect others that helped them any less. It is important to establish roots in order to grow. Doju Jae, Han JI has always given credit to Doju Choi, Yong Sul as his teacher and to this day considers him as his Teacher. Much of what seems to be getting over looked in the discussion concerning Hapkido,( what is Hapkido) is that Hapkido has changed over the years. The biggest problem that I have seen is when someone say's Kuk Sool Won, Hwa Rang Do, Han Mu Do, Kung Jung Moo Sool and a few other are all Hapkido. Naturally the Grandmasters and founder of these systems become upset. They are not now or were they ever be Hapkido. They or unique systems that after years of training became what they are today.To say that many of the techniques found within these systems resemble those found in Hapkido would be a more accurate statement. The other problem that you will find when investigating Hapkido is that many of the early Grandmasters did not write anything down nor was Hapkido taught in any particular order. Hapkido was a Martial Art and the enphasis was on Self Defense, How to cause great pain with the minimal amount of effort. Techniques were often broken down into sets and passed on in this manner. I know when I first started training I was told I will give you ABC and you make the next technique. Hapkido is a very private Martial Art and In my opinion that will never change. When you try to make everyone execute the techniques exactly the same you will fail. This is one of the reasons that much of the History has been lost. To the early Masters what was important was technique not where it came from who named it or if it even had a name. What was important was does it work? Will it work for me? Can I use this to Defend my Self and my loved ones? In reference to Jang In Mok, in the past 28 years I have never heard my teacher refer to Jang, In Mok as a Grandmaster only as his teacher. Also I remember him telling me that Jang, In Mok did not teach many people and for a long time he was his only student. This post has gone much longer than I expected, I apologize. However I would like to say regarding Grappling in Hapkido, I as well as most of my counterparts have always Grappled and it has been much of our curriculum for years yes long before it was Cool ! How many of you Hapkidoist practice the 15 Handshakes? They are still found in Aikijutsu! What is Hapkido? Total Combined Martial Arts, therefore Hapkido is what ever you want it to be! Yu, Won, Wha Soft, Circular, Harmony that is Hapkido! Tan Joon Ho Heup Bup, that is Hapkido! Straight Mind, Straight Body, Total Concentration that is Hapkido! Sharing with others what it has taken you 35 years to begin to understand in hope that you can saved them the time and they can get there sooner so that they may help yet another. That is Hapkido!! Dan ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 10:50:19 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: Hapkido History > great instability in hapkido ranks as well. After > Pres. Cheong-Heui Pak's assassination, GM Ji spent > a year in prison. Actually, I believe the time that DoJu JI spent in prison was not after President Park was killed, but after Park's wife was killed in an earlier assination attempt. I believe that DoJu Ji was out of the country on R&R when the failed attempt occurred on Park's life, but Mrs. Park was killed during the attempt. ??? What makes me think this is the fact that the then head of the Blue House security (Ji's replacement?) was killed at the same time President Park was killed by the head of the Korean CIA. Yes? I have not asked DoJuNim about this as I figure it is not one of the more pleasant things he cares to discuss. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Meteor2000@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 13:36:28 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #10 In a message dated 1/6/01 7:19:54 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << From: Bernard G Redfield Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 22:58:14 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: the Late GM Shim Sang Kyu Hello List, I am trying to find out when GM Shim Sang Kyu made the transition from Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan to ITF Tae Kwon Do? It would be greatly appreciated if you could help me with or hopefully give me an idea on where I could find this information. Thank you for your attention. Respects Bernard http://pages.cthome.net/redtsd >> Hello Bernard, It had to be around late 1966/67 as of 1968 the patches were being changed from "Michigan Tang Soo Do" to United Tae Kwon Do. In 1968 Master Shim's books still had Tang Soo Do on them but everyone was learning ITF Taekwondo forms, except for one form called Ship O Bo. Also, very few people know that there was another Master by the name of Lee Chung Wha that was teaching there in Michigan first for the same group. Another Master, Russ Hanke's senior and partner was David Preim (spelling may be wrong) David Preim and David Prue were the real organizers of the Michigan Tang Soo Do, Russ Hanke (student of Dale Drouilard #757) was a partner but more of a follower in those day's. ------------------------------ From: "T. Kennelly" Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 14:05:13 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: re: Mats in Taekwon-Do? Christopher Spiller asks: I was wondering if someone can enlighten me as to why so many Taekwon-Do dojangs have mats. At the TKD school I attend we are taught forward rolls, backward rolls, and break falls therefore we need the mats. In addition when advanced students are practicing creative self defense (i.e., make up your own combination of moves in response to punches, kicks, grabs,...) the mats are used for take downs. ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 19:18:56 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: Yet MORE on "What is Hapkido" One more time with some questions and observations. I had said: > > But did GM Ji "give" the name Hapkido to GM Choi expecting him to teach >the > > exact same thing as GM Ji was? I would seriously doubt it. To which Ray said: >I would doubt it, too. My take on it is that Hapkido became popular in >Korea primarily due to GM Ji's efforts and his political power (as head >of the Blue House Security). GM Choi taught private lessons, charged great >sums of $$ for lessons, and his art was not spreading widely and quickly. >But GM Ji's art, now widely known as Hapkido, was spreading widely and >quickly >and thus, in order to help out his original instructor, suggested to GM >Choi >that he/Choi use the name Hapkido to help gain more students. IMHO. That does make sense. Of course this would mean that, at least implicitly, GM Ji was saying that Hapkido was a generic term (kind of like karate or jujutsu). I had said: > > Here, it seems to me is an important distinction to be made. GM Ji has, >in > > effect, caused this confusion if he gave the name to GM Choi. He >basically > > said for GM Choi to use the name "Hapkido" for a DIFFERENT art than his >own > > Hapkido. To which Ray replied: >Was the Tang Soo Do taught at the Chung Do Kwan the same as the Tang Soo >Do taught at the Moo Duk Kwan? Similar, but I suspect rather different. This is exactly my point. Two different but related arts. One name. Ray also said: >But perhaps he did cause confusion by doing the above, but then hindsight >is 20/20. Whatever he did probably made good sense at the time. Yes, I have often found this to be true in my own life. What seemed like a good idea at the time has often turned out to be NOT such a good plan. But the fact of the matter is, if GM Ji came up with the term "Hapkido" and "gave" it to GM Choi to use then he can claim to be the person who came up with the term, who founded Sin Moo Hapkido, and taught the majority of current Hapkido masters (or at least was the president of their organization). However, it would be problematic to say that he "founded Hapkido" because of the whole giving the name thing. This is not meant to be disrespectful at all. But it's basically tantamount to saying he founded GM Choi's Hapkido. Now you can call it yawara, but GM Ji said it was Hapkido. I said: > > GM Jang, In Mok was another Korean who learned Daito-ryu Aikijutsu while >in > > Japan. To which Ray asked: >Can you provide more info on GM Jang, and other Koreans that we know >learned >Daito-Ryu Aiki-JJ? We know they are out there, we also know that GM Choi >has >difficultly proving that he actually studied Daito-Ryu, right? Again I >submit we know of GM Choi because he was the original instructor of GM Ji. The only information I have seen on GM Jang is from the Australian Hapkido Association's website. Some of their members met him in Korea during 1995. He and GM Choi apparently did not get along very well. I do not have a copy of Stanley Pranin's book of interviews with Daito Ryu masters but have heard that some of this topic (Koreans training in Daito Ryu) is covered in it. Any one have a copy? As far as GM Choi being known because he was GM Ji's original instructor, I would agree with that. He may have been known because he taught people like Suh Bok Sub, Chang Chin Il, and others, but not nearly to the extent that he is now. Ray said: >Please do not take this as a statement of disrespect for GM Choi. That is >not >my intention. But GM Ji, DoJu Ji, is very open about the fact that he >gained >fame and power and a LARGE following too early in life, i.e. when he was >only >in his 20s. Few people will well handle extreme power and influence that >early in life. So I submit that had these other folks that learned >Daito-ryu >had been GM Ji's first instructor, we would be talking of them now and not >GM Choi. That is a distinct possibility. In fact, it's very probable. But this in no way changes the issue about whether GM Ji or his original instructor was the founder of Hapkido. Why? Because if GM Ji gave his instructor the name Hapkido then Hapkido is a generic term that refers to a variety of arts that spring from Daito Ryu. Again, this is in no way meant to be disrespectful to GM Ji or any one else. It just seems to be the logical conclusion from the actions that have occured. Now if either the people in GM Choi's lineage or GM Ji's lineage stopped using the term Hapkido this wouldn't be an issue. Kind of like if either the ITF or the WTF stopped using the name Taekwon-Do (no flames, please ;-). I had asked: > > But is a Kwan name equated with an art? It seems, and I could be > > misunderstanding here, that first GM Ji had Sung Moo Hapkido and then he >had > > Sin Moo Hapkido. But were they different arts, or is Sin Moo an > > evolution/improvement of Sung Moo? Ray answered: >Sin Moo Hapkido is an evolution of the Hapkido taught in the Sung Moo Kwan. >DoJu Ji has said that the Hapkido he taught in Korea was primarily an art >of self-defense and an art to hurt others. He now views his Hapkido, Sin >Moo Hapkido, with more of the "Do" aspects that we might normally attribute >to Dr. Kano's original thinking, i.e. a way to improve ones' self. Or at >least that is my understanding of DoJu Ji's thinking. So, if I understand this it is like this: the Sung Moo Kwan teaches Sin Moo Hapkido. Sung Moo Kwan is the school and Sin Moo Hapkido is the style that the school teaches. I would like to thank Bruce Sims, Ray, and the others who have been talking about the origins of Hapkido on the list recently. As an outsider, it is still interesting to hear discussions of lineage, history, etc. Thanks also for indulging my own questions. Taekwon, Chris "Every experience of beauty points to infinity." Hans Urs von Balthasar _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Carsten Jorgensen Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 14:47:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Defending GM Lee :-) Dakin: >> For now, let me just ask that Carsten, in his efficient method, post a response defending GM Lee and then we can call it a day, ok? << Well, I'm not defending anyone :-) We're just talking about history. It's at least two-three years ago that the World Kuk Sool Association posted on their webpage that GM Suh was not a student of GM Choi. GM Kimm wrote that GM Joo Bang Lee learned palm techniques (I don't know if it's true but there are many mistakes in the chapter) not that he was a student of Suh. And of course he wasn't. The photo shows the Kuk Sool Hwe emblem behind GM Lee. They got it from combining the original emblem (the "Taesoodo" triangle on the cover of www.hwarangdo.com) with the emblem you can see for instance in http://www.koreanconsulatela.org/ next to the statue of Dosan. (See it?) GM lee actually got into trouble because they used it without government permission, and since his schools were in Seoul... Was that efficient enough? :-) Carsten Jorgensen hwarangdo@email.com Copenhagen, Denmark - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ------------------------------ From: Carsten Jorgensen Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 14:52:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: History etc > Hapkido arts are not Gracie ju-jitsu. Absolutely. >> Despite the fact that GJJ is very effective and very popular right now does not lend license to Hapkido leadership to suddenly acquire some Judo ground techniques and offer them as though they have always been incorporated in the curriculum. Does Hapkido have ground techniques? Sure, but nothing in the order of GJJ and I think one would do well to be honest enough to own that. << I can't speak for 'Hapkido' but Hwarang Do always had groundfighting. Of course this is impossible to prove since it happened so long ago - what, they had cameras back then - and even 8mm film? hmmmmm :-) When GM Joo Sang Lee and GM Joo Bang Lee came to America they trained on a carpeted floor. So most of the American students quit because they didn't like the groundfighting and it wasn't trained much for many years, but it's always been a part of the style. Was it as developed as GJJ is? No of course not, GJJ has developed their Judo/JuJutsu techniques greatly, just as Taekwondo has developed the speedkicking/turning kicks that always has been a part of Hwarang Do. Me: >>> "..."Leaders of the Hapkido community" - well everybody were teaching different things when they started using the Hapkido name, that's one of the reasons why the styles were never united as the "Taekwondo" styles were....." <<< Bruce: >> I'll accept that point as it is seen now, but back in the earlier days there is a lot more to suggest that what people were learning was more similar that different. With time I suspect the differences were enhanced and even emphacised (different uniforms, and ettiquette and leadership). << What do you see to suggests that? The original masters came to GM Choi with different backgrounds and stayed for different periods of length. I would guess that they also learned different things from him. The styles were always different We can also take the uniforms as an example, the Kuk Sool Hwe used black uniforms with red trim for the students and blue uniforms for black belts. We can even use the names of the styles. The "kwan" in Mu Sool Kwan, Song Mu Kwan etc. doesn't mean the founders were acknowledging a similar Hapkido background. Well not anymore than names such as Song Mu Kwan, Yun Mu Kwan, Ji Do Kwan and all the other styles later were united as Taekwondo originally saw themselves as part of one big style! Kwan is a house, a style, it does not mean a sub-division. Me: >> "Do you have any examples of early masters who [frequently] changed teachers?..." << >Kim, Woo tak Kim Uoo Tak was one of the original members of the Kuk Sool Hwe, not a student of GM Suh. He continued his Kuk Sool Kwan style when the KSH broke up. > GM Lee (HwaRangDo) had Su Ahm Dosa, GM Choi and GM Kim, Moo-woong. < GM Lee have had two teachers in his life. His primary teacher, Suam Dosa, who he trained under for almost 30 years, and then GM Choi. This is not a secret, and both teachers are mentioned in the oldest article about Hwarang Do I've found (Korean newspaper 1968). GM Lee was never a student of GM Kim Moo-Hong, this is from one of my old posts: "in 1962 Dr. Lee was contacted by GM Kim Moo-Hong's father. Kim had also trained Yusool and founded a style in 1961 called Shin Mu Kwan (Shin='new'), he had opened a martial arts school, but since he now was 22 years old he had to complete his three years military duty. This left his school without instructors so Kim's father hired Dr. Lee to teach in his school, which he did for almost three months. Dr. Lee reopened his Hwa Rang Do school and taught at Kim's school during the daytime and at his own school in the evenings. While Dr. Lee taught at GM Kim's school he, for the first time, introduced many of the Hwa Rang Musul techniques to Kim's students." How is this "hopping around from teacher to teacher like fleas on a hotplate" ? >> This is not a criticism. In fact, I am beginning to think that such collective, consensus-driven evaluation of various techniques, philosophies and biomechanics by a informal quorum rather than an individual or succession of individuals (as in the Japanese Koryu Tradition) may be a fundamental factor (a basic quality) in the Korean Martial tradition. << That's very American of you, but it's not what happened originally :-) Carsten Jorgensen hwarangdo@email.com Copenhagen, Denmark - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 12:28:35 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: Yet MORE on "What is Hapkido" > However, it would be problematic to say that he "founded Hapkido" because of > the whole giving the name thing. This is not meant to be disrespectful at > all. But it's basically tantamount to saying he founded GM Choi's Hapkido. > Now you can call it yawara, but GM Ji said it was Hapkido. I don't follow. Howz this, Bruce Lee learned Wing Chun from Yip Man. Then Bruce Lee founded Jeet Kune Do. Yes? If Sifu Lee had suggested to Yip Man that he could bring in more students and make more $$ by teaching JKD would that change the fact that Lee founded JKD? IMHO, no. > The only information I have seen on GM Jang is from the Australian Hapkido > Association's website. Some of their members met him in Korea during 1995. > He and GM Choi apparently did not get along very well. I do not have a copy > of Stanley Pranin's book of interviews with Daito Ryu masters but have heard > that some of this topic (Koreans training in Daito Ryu) is covered in it. > Any one have a copy? I have it, but don't recall seeing anything in it re the above. Perhaps I skipped over it. HE Davey's book has info about Choi, only that he is unknown to the DaitoRyu and the entire Takeda family. > So, if I understand this it is like this: the Sung Moo Kwan teaches Sin Moo > Hapkido. Sung Moo Kwan is the school and Sin Moo Hapkido is the style that > the school teaches. No. The JI's Sung Moo Kwan no longer exists. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 12:36:58 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #11 ******************************* It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.