From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com
To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com
Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #13
Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com
Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com
Precedence:
The_Dojang-Digest Sun, 7 Jan 2001 Vol 08 : Num 013
In this issue:
the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #12
the_dojang: Billy Jack
the_dojang: Why practice with matts
the_dojang: crouching tiger hidden dragon
the_dojang: RE: Innocent Question
the_dojang: Help needed on Three Points
the_dojang: RE: Jang, In Mok
the_dojang: I just LOVE being an American!
the_dojang: Why we practice with mats
the_dojang: Re: Just a good looking floor???
the_dojang: Re: Mats and The Street
the_dojang: .
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Pil Seung!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 23:49:32 EST
Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #12
In a message dated 1/6/01 10:43:50 PM Central Standard Time,
the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes:
<< >Besides, Billy Jack was great.
Recall when 'Billy Jack' ran for President? He probably would have been
better than Billy Jeff (Clinton).
>>
Hey I didn't know about that, but yes I agree, he would have been better!
gary pieratt
New CKC Web Page
------------------------------
From: "David Salt"
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 02:50:10 -0500
Subject: the_dojang: Billy Jack
Yea, I remember Billy Jack when he ran for president, because he was so
fat!!!
David
headbanger@mindspring.com
------------------------------
From: Bernard G Redfield
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 10:47:25 -0500
Subject: the_dojang: Why practice with matts
<>
IMHO of course, I would think that being thrown to the concrete or
asphalt would tend to limit the number of times you could practice a
throw. : )
Respects
Bernard
------------------------------
From: Donnla Nic Gearailt
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 15:16:16 +0000
Subject: the_dojang: crouching tiger hidden dragon
Some of you on this list may be interested in this film, I've just been to see
it and it is wonderful. It has lots of fight sequences typical of Hong Kong
action flicks with Michelle Yeoh (who stars in this also), but has a dreamlike
cinematic quality that take it from action movie to pure artistic experience.
Anyway, I bet the tough folks on this list won't cry half as much as I did at
the end.
Donnla.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Donnla Nic Gearailt Computer Laboratory, New Museums Site,
Graduate Student Pembroke St., Cambridge CB2 3QG, U.K.
tel: +44-1223-334619 http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~dbn20/
"An eyelash! How could you be so careless!" - Jude Law, Gattaca
------------------------------
From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 10:06:51 -0600
Subject: the_dojang: RE: Innocent Question
Dear Anthony (or Clare):
No. I haven't visited, lived in or been stationed in Korea. Hope this helps.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
------------------------------
From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC"
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 10:22:17 -0600
Subject: the_dojang: Help needed on Three Points
Dear Dakin and Carsten:
Point One:
I am using Dr. Kimm and the result is that I have Lee, Joo Bang proceeding
from Su Ahm Dosa with influence from Kim, Moo woong (see Kimm, HAPKIDO, pg
60). I didn't list GM Lee as proceeding directly from GM Choi b/c
a.) GM Lee acknowledges Su Ahm Dosa as his teacher and
b.) I couldn't find a place where Dr Kimm specifically references GM Lee
as training under GM Choi or GM Suh, Bok-sub. The result is what you see in
my Tree on my website. Does this logic appear sound?
Point Two:
Dr Kimm references Suh, I.H. (HAPKIDO, pg 61) as teaching Kuk Sool Won in
Pusan in 1958 and "visiting" Kim, Moo woongs' school after GM Kim was
drafted. In my tree I have GM Suh, I.H. proceeding directly from Monk Hae
Dong and Wang, Tue-eui with no actual relationship with GM Choi. I could use
some in-put here as well.
Point Three:
At some point I will begin 2nd generation with GM-s Ji, Kim, Won, etc. From
Rays' contribution I have come to understand that Sin Moo Hapkido was not
the art of the Sung Moo Kwan but proceeded from the Sung Moo Kwan
experience. This being the case I wonder if it would be more fair and
accurate to have two lines for GM Ji. The first line would branch directly
from GM Choi and identify the Sung Moo Kwan experience (C. 1963 to 1981) and
a second line would branch off the Sung Moo Kwan as the Sin Moo Hapkido
experience (post 1981). Although I addressed this to Dakin and Carsten, I
could use feedback on this last from anyone.
Best Wishes,
Bruce W Sims
www.midwesthapkido.com
------------------------------
From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 10:48:15 -0600
Subject: the_dojang: RE: Jang, In Mok
From what I have put together so far GM Jang teaches a very limited
following of students in Taegu, Korea.
The report that I have is that GM Jang studied Daito-ryu in Japan under a
student of OS Takeda named "mazida hosaku".
There is reportedly a copy of his cert in a book entitled HAPKI TAM GU (publ
1964) but later corrections suggest that rather than a "kyoju dairi"
(teaching license) this may only be a cert of participation in one or more
Daito-ryu seminars. I have not yet been able to secure either the book or a
copy of the cert so that's as much as I can report there. There is an
outside chance the I may be able to get a copy of the cert in another way,
but that will probably be as much luck as anything else.
BTW: The individual who put me on to this information also stated that a
review of Daito-ryu eimeiroku (enrollment records) indicate "1928, 11-2 to
11-9, 5 Korean people, 1928, 12-10 to 12-17, 4 Korean people, 1928 12-18 to
12-25, 4 Korean people) which tends to support Mr Pranin comment that Korean
surnames could be found in the Daito-ryu records.
Apparently GM Jang identifies his art as Hapki yu sool and has at least one
former student teaching down in El Paso, Tx as well as at least one more in
Australia. If there are any people from the LDU lurking about that can add
some information, it would be very helpful as this is about as much as I
know.
That's about the best I can do for you about GM Jang, unless M Rogers has
something more to add. Now how about trade--- whatall can you tell me about
Mr. Inn-seok Pak? Is this another contemporary of GM Jang and GM Choi or did
you mean that his Japanese father who practiced Daito-ryu would have been a
Choi/Jang comtemporary. Any information you could provide would beat what I
have now--- which is zip.
Best Wishes,
Bruce W Sims
www.midwesthapkido.com
------------------------------
From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC"
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 11:14:37 -0600
Subject: the_dojang: I just LOVE being an American!
Dear Carsten:
"...That's' very American of you..."
Well, we do what we can.
But seriously, work with me on this for a second, 'kay?
When we characterize Chinese MA there is usually an attempt to identify
either a succession of organizations or insitituions which were instrumental
in overseeing the maintanence and perpetuation of a particular art or
tradition, yes?
In Japan this approach developed into the highly structured Ryu-Ha system
with its patrilinear succession of headmasters, yes? In both cases either
the central government (China) or the regional lords (Japan) held the
"confidence" of the people. What I was suggesting in my comment was a
condition resulting from a history in which the average Korean simply no
longer felt a particular confidence that the government either local or
central would watch out for them or take care of them. To my way of
thinking, the result would be a martial tradition conducted in an informal
basis (relative to what we find in Chinese or Japanese tradition) that would
work like this.
MR A comes to a village or returns to his village with martial material (a
new art, a new weapon) and draws the attention of people around him who
learn his material but also compare notes on how that material relates to
how things have been done for a while. Out of the presence of Mr A the
students are engaged in an integration process. In time the "students" break
off move to a new location and begin the process again. Some people would
say, "well, hell, that's just MA business as usual" --- except for three
things
a.) The Korean Martial tradition being informal rather than formal would
have had no hang-ups about GM, M and Supreme GM. There would have been
teachers and students who would become teachers.
b.) The matter of formal or institutional succession through a series
individuals who embodied sole authority for the art (along with all the
hang-ups about GM and SGM) would have been an imported concept rather than
integral to Korean Martial Tradition.
c.) Such a theory could easily explain why arts related to Korean
Tradition have an inordinately high number of schisms. By western standards
such schisms are signs of conflict and disorder. Perhaps within the context
of Korean Martial Tradition such informal transition and shaping of their
arts is expected and on some level perhaps even encouraged. That could also
explain to some extent the retired fashion in which many Korean teachers
seem to leave higher ranking students to their own devices in "uncovering"
the art for themselves, ne?
Just a little light musing on a Sunday afternoon.
Best Wishes,
Bruce W Sims
www.midwesthapkido.com
------------------------------
From: Migukyong@aol.com
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 12:33:05 EST
Subject: the_dojang: Why we practice with mats
gary... two words: Civil Liability.
Americans just love to sue. Need I say more?
Frank
------------------------------
From: Piotr Bernat
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 17:33:54 +0200
Subject: the_dojang: Re: Just a good looking floor???
> << Why is this ???? Just a good looking floor ??? Ratty looking walls?
> Nothing to kick? No advertising ??? No mirrors ?
> Why not ?
Most schools in my country look just like that. And even without good floor.
Mainly school gyms rented for hours - I always carry the full equipment
with me (half of my car is usually filled with paddles, kicking shields,
hogus, headguards etc.). But if I had to choose I would also start with a
good floor, not with mirrors or posters.
Regards
- --
Piotr Bernat
dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl
http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl
------------------------------
From: Sarah Pride
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:36:25 -0600
Subject: the_dojang: Re: Mats and The Street
<< Christopher Spiller asks: I was wondering if someone can enlighten me as
to why so many Taekwon-Do dojangs have mats.
At the TKD school I attend we are taught forward rolls, backward rolls, and
break falls therefore we need the mats. In addition when advanced students
are practicing creative self defense (i.e., make up your own combination of
moves in response to punches, kicks, grabs,...) the mats are used for take
downs. >>
>There are no mats on the street. So why practice with mats?
>gary pieratt
I assume the theory is that, in the dojang, your attacker is not
really trying to hurt you. So there is no real need to hurt him when
you take him down. Save the bruises and stiffness for the actual
confrontation, and all that rot.
- -Sarah Pride-
------------------------------
From: Ray Terry
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 13:14:00 PST
Subject: the_dojang: .
------------------------------
End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #13
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