From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #13 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sun, 7 Jan 2001 Vol 08 : Num 013 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #12 the_dojang: Billy Jack the_dojang: Why practice with matts the_dojang: crouching tiger hidden dragon the_dojang: RE: Innocent Question the_dojang: Help needed on Three Points the_dojang: RE: Jang, In Mok the_dojang: I just LOVE being an American! the_dojang: Why we practice with mats the_dojang: Re: Just a good looking floor??? the_dojang: Re: Mats and The Street the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~999 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 23:49:32 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #12 In a message dated 1/6/01 10:43:50 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << >Besides, Billy Jack was great. Recall when 'Billy Jack' ran for President? He probably would have been better than Billy Jeff (Clinton). >> Hey I didn't know about that, but yes I agree, he would have been better! gary pieratt New CKC Web Page ------------------------------ From: "David Salt" Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 02:50:10 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Billy Jack Yea, I remember Billy Jack when he ran for president, because he was so fat!!! David headbanger@mindspring.com ------------------------------ From: Bernard G Redfield Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 10:47:25 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Why practice with matts <> IMHO of course, I would think that being thrown to the concrete or asphalt would tend to limit the number of times you could practice a throw. : ) Respects Bernard ------------------------------ From: Donnla Nic Gearailt Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 15:16:16 +0000 Subject: the_dojang: crouching tiger hidden dragon Some of you on this list may be interested in this film, I've just been to see it and it is wonderful. It has lots of fight sequences typical of Hong Kong action flicks with Michelle Yeoh (who stars in this also), but has a dreamlike cinematic quality that take it from action movie to pure artistic experience. Anyway, I bet the tough folks on this list won't cry half as much as I did at the end. Donnla. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Donnla Nic Gearailt Computer Laboratory, New Museums Site, Graduate Student Pembroke St., Cambridge CB2 3QG, U.K. tel: +44-1223-334619 http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~dbn20/ "An eyelash! How could you be so careless!" - Jude Law, Gattaca ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 10:06:51 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Innocent Question Dear Anthony (or Clare): No. I haven't visited, lived in or been stationed in Korea. Hope this helps. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 10:22:17 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Help needed on Three Points Dear Dakin and Carsten: Point One: I am using Dr. Kimm and the result is that I have Lee, Joo Bang proceeding from Su Ahm Dosa with influence from Kim, Moo woong (see Kimm, HAPKIDO, pg 60). I didn't list GM Lee as proceeding directly from GM Choi b/c a.) GM Lee acknowledges Su Ahm Dosa as his teacher and b.) I couldn't find a place where Dr Kimm specifically references GM Lee as training under GM Choi or GM Suh, Bok-sub. The result is what you see in my Tree on my website. Does this logic appear sound? Point Two: Dr Kimm references Suh, I.H. (HAPKIDO, pg 61) as teaching Kuk Sool Won in Pusan in 1958 and "visiting" Kim, Moo woongs' school after GM Kim was drafted. In my tree I have GM Suh, I.H. proceeding directly from Monk Hae Dong and Wang, Tue-eui with no actual relationship with GM Choi. I could use some in-put here as well. Point Three: At some point I will begin 2nd generation with GM-s Ji, Kim, Won, etc. From Rays' contribution I have come to understand that Sin Moo Hapkido was not the art of the Sung Moo Kwan but proceeded from the Sung Moo Kwan experience. This being the case I wonder if it would be more fair and accurate to have two lines for GM Ji. The first line would branch directly from GM Choi and identify the Sung Moo Kwan experience (C. 1963 to 1981) and a second line would branch off the Sung Moo Kwan as the Sin Moo Hapkido experience (post 1981). Although I addressed this to Dakin and Carsten, I could use feedback on this last from anyone. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 10:48:15 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Jang, In Mok From what I have put together so far GM Jang teaches a very limited following of students in Taegu, Korea. The report that I have is that GM Jang studied Daito-ryu in Japan under a student of OS Takeda named "mazida hosaku". There is reportedly a copy of his cert in a book entitled HAPKI TAM GU (publ 1964) but later corrections suggest that rather than a "kyoju dairi" (teaching license) this may only be a cert of participation in one or more Daito-ryu seminars. I have not yet been able to secure either the book or a copy of the cert so that's as much as I can report there. There is an outside chance the I may be able to get a copy of the cert in another way, but that will probably be as much luck as anything else. BTW: The individual who put me on to this information also stated that a review of Daito-ryu eimeiroku (enrollment records) indicate "1928, 11-2 to 11-9, 5 Korean people, 1928, 12-10 to 12-17, 4 Korean people, 1928 12-18 to 12-25, 4 Korean people) which tends to support Mr Pranin comment that Korean surnames could be found in the Daito-ryu records. Apparently GM Jang identifies his art as Hapki yu sool and has at least one former student teaching down in El Paso, Tx as well as at least one more in Australia. If there are any people from the LDU lurking about that can add some information, it would be very helpful as this is about as much as I know. That's about the best I can do for you about GM Jang, unless M Rogers has something more to add. Now how about trade--- whatall can you tell me about Mr. Inn-seok Pak? Is this another contemporary of GM Jang and GM Choi or did you mean that his Japanese father who practiced Daito-ryu would have been a Choi/Jang comtemporary. Any information you could provide would beat what I have now--- which is zip. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 11:14:37 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: I just LOVE being an American! Dear Carsten: "...That's' very American of you..." Well, we do what we can. But seriously, work with me on this for a second, 'kay? When we characterize Chinese MA there is usually an attempt to identify either a succession of organizations or insitituions which were instrumental in overseeing the maintanence and perpetuation of a particular art or tradition, yes? In Japan this approach developed into the highly structured Ryu-Ha system with its patrilinear succession of headmasters, yes? In both cases either the central government (China) or the regional lords (Japan) held the "confidence" of the people. What I was suggesting in my comment was a condition resulting from a history in which the average Korean simply no longer felt a particular confidence that the government either local or central would watch out for them or take care of them. To my way of thinking, the result would be a martial tradition conducted in an informal basis (relative to what we find in Chinese or Japanese tradition) that would work like this. MR A comes to a village or returns to his village with martial material (a new art, a new weapon) and draws the attention of people around him who learn his material but also compare notes on how that material relates to how things have been done for a while. Out of the presence of Mr A the students are engaged in an integration process. In time the "students" break off move to a new location and begin the process again. Some people would say, "well, hell, that's just MA business as usual" --- except for three things a.) The Korean Martial tradition being informal rather than formal would have had no hang-ups about GM, M and Supreme GM. There would have been teachers and students who would become teachers. b.) The matter of formal or institutional succession through a series individuals who embodied sole authority for the art (along with all the hang-ups about GM and SGM) would have been an imported concept rather than integral to Korean Martial Tradition. c.) Such a theory could easily explain why arts related to Korean Tradition have an inordinately high number of schisms. By western standards such schisms are signs of conflict and disorder. Perhaps within the context of Korean Martial Tradition such informal transition and shaping of their arts is expected and on some level perhaps even encouraged. That could also explain to some extent the retired fashion in which many Korean teachers seem to leave higher ranking students to their own devices in "uncovering" the art for themselves, ne? Just a little light musing on a Sunday afternoon. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Migukyong@aol.com Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 12:33:05 EST Subject: the_dojang: Why we practice with mats gary... two words: Civil Liability. Americans just love to sue. Need I say more? Frank ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 17:33:54 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Just a good looking floor??? > << Why is this ???? Just a good looking floor ??? Ratty looking walls? > Nothing to kick? No advertising ??? No mirrors ? > Why not ? Most schools in my country look just like that. And even without good floor. Mainly school gyms rented for hours - I always carry the full equipment with me (half of my car is usually filled with paddles, kicking shields, hogus, headguards etc.). But if I had to choose I would also start with a good floor, not with mirrors or posters. Regards - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: Sarah Pride Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:36:25 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Mats and The Street << Christopher Spiller asks: I was wondering if someone can enlighten me as to why so many Taekwon-Do dojangs have mats. At the TKD school I attend we are taught forward rolls, backward rolls, and break falls therefore we need the mats. In addition when advanced students are practicing creative self defense (i.e., make up your own combination of moves in response to punches, kicks, grabs,...) the mats are used for take downs. >> >There are no mats on the street. So why practice with mats? >gary pieratt I assume the theory is that, in the dojang, your attacker is not really trying to hurt you. So there is no real need to hurt him when you take him down. Save the bruises and stiffness for the actual confrontation, and all that rot. - -Sarah Pride- ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 13:14:00 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #13 ******************************* It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.