From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #15 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 8 Jan 2001 Vol 08 : Num 015 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: to gary Pieratt and mats the_dojang: Even MORE on Hapkido the_dojang: Re: raising them in the dojang/Melinda the_dojang: Re: crouching tiger hidden dragon the_dojang: Floors the_dojang: Chonkwon Poomsae the_dojang: RE: Going to the history horse's mouth Re: the_dojang: Even MORE on Hapkido the_dojang: RE: Ground Techniques or grounded techniques the_dojang: Re: Knockouts the_dojang: Re: Opinion Question the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~999 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Martin Price Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 06:52:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: to gary Pieratt and mats Gary, You replied to the following: << Christopher Spiller asks: I was wondering if someone can enlighten me as to why so many Taekwon-Do dojangs have mats.>> <> I will paraphrase << Why use mats? There are no mats on the street!>> I hope you are kidding in regards to your reply about using mats. Think about why we wear protective gear during full contact sparring, why we break boards, bricks, etc. rather than each others ribs, arms, noses, etc. It is easy enough with one slip to get hurt or hurt some one during practice with mats and protective gear, imagine the injuries without mats and protective gear. Yours in TKD Martin one of the Gray Beards ___________________________________________________ GO.com Mail Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 15:01:49 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: Even MORE on Hapkido I said: > > However, it would be problematic to say that he "founded Hapkido" >because of > > the whole giving the name thing. This is not meant to be disrespectful >at > > all. But it's basically tantamount to saying he founded GM Choi's >Hapkido. > > Now you can call it yawara, but GM Ji said it was Hapkido. To which Ray replied: >I don't follow. Howz this, Bruce Lee learned Wing Chun from Yip Man. >Then >Bruce Lee founded Jeet Kune Do. Yes? If Sifu Lee had suggested to Yip Man >that he could bring in more students and make more $$ by teaching JKD would >that change the fact that Lee founded JKD? IMHO, no. Of course it wouldn't change the fact that Bruce Lee founded Jeet Kune Do, IF he is encouraging Yip Man to engage in what seems to be false advertising. However, to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, it would seem that Bruce Lee is telling Yip Man to adopt a new name for his art, an umbrella term that will cover what was formerlly Wing Chun and any of its "offspring" arts. The issue really appears to me to be that GM JI says he is the founder of Hapkido, gave the name Hapkido to GM Choi, and now wants GM Choi's students (and their students) to: A) stop using the name Hapkido, or B) agree that he founded their art (this seems highly unlikely), or C) at least acknowledge that he came up with the term Hapkido which they now apply to their art (which, from what I have seen, many of them don't have a problem doing). GM Ji may say that if you don't practice what he teaches as Hapkido then you are not practicing Hapkido. But then it raises the question of what he was doing by giving the name Hapkido to GM Choi. Maybe it was just a bit of marketing, but I was under the impression that GM Ji shortly thereafter began using the term "Kido" to refer to his art because he realized the Aikido and Hapkido were written the same in Chinese/Japanese characters. So, at least for a while this whole thing was a non-issue. He later reverted to using Hapkido again. Again, this is just my understanding and I could be wrong. I said: > > So, if I understand this it is like this: the Sung Moo Kwan teaches Sin >Moo > > Hapkido. Sung Moo Kwan is the school and Sin Moo Hapkido is the style >that > > the school teaches. To which Ray replied: >No. The JI's Sung Moo Kwan no longer exists. So GM Ji's art went from Hapkido to An Moo Kwan Hapkido (if I remember correctly) to Sung Moo Kwan Hapkido to Sin Moo Hapkido? I presume that the name changes signify evolutionary steps in his art. Taekwon, Chris "Every experience of beauty points to infinity." Hans Urs von Balthasar _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Robert Martin" Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 08:07:49 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: raising them in the dojang/Melinda > > From: "Lasich, Mark D." > Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 08:39:02 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: RE: raising them in the dojang/Melinda > > - - Just because the kid has an instructor parent does not make them a > 'natural' or somehow a better Martial Artist than the other students - > however, there will be those who will think this way This one is so true. Both of my kids were "raised in the dojang". (now 14 and a week from 18) Neither one of them spent more then a year in training. They are asked on regular basis when they are training, etc. I wish they had studied but Taekwon-Do is not genetic. Instead my son earned his Eagle Scout rank (the almost 18 year old) and my daughter is good at gymnastics and is becoming a cheerleader. Interestingly, both of them know more self defense then their contemporaries. That is how we "rough housed" over the years -- break falls, joint locks, take downs, mock sparring, etc. Just enjoy yourself and you child. Do the best you can and don't let anyone tell you how to do it. Ask advice and if it sounds right, use it. Good luck and congrats! Robert Martin ------------------------------ From: Donnla Nic Gearailt Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 15:07:13 +0000 Subject: the_dojang: Re: crouching tiger hidden dragon In message <200101081511.KAA14631@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com> you write: >is the film in English? or is it subtitled? I'll go either way, just curious >. >gary pieratt it's in Chinese with English subtitles. Donnla. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Donnla Nic Gearailt Computer Laboratory, New Museums Site, Graduate Student Pembroke St., Cambridge CB2 3QG, U.K. tel: +44-1223-334619 http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~dbn20/ "An eyelash! How could you be so careless!" - Jude Law, Gattaca ------------------------------ From: Mary Braud Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 09:22:21 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Floors I've seen alot of posts about mats as a flooring system... I was wondering about opinions on wood floors. This is what my school has. Perhaps I'm just lucky, and didn't even know it! :-) Mary ------------------------------ From: "Dana Vaillancourt" Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 15:43:44 Subject: the_dojang: Chonkwon Poomsae Hi. I have a quick question for those of you that do Chonkwon Poomsae. It has to do with how you were "taught" foot position moving in the first direction of the form during the three knife-hand blocks which turn into catch/grabs. Do you turn your rear foot so that the toes turn to the inside of your body when you block or not? I had been taught with the turn of the foot. The Kukkiwon textbook and tapes contradict, as well as how different instructors teach it [surprised?]. Just curious if list members do it both ways or if anyone has had a KKW "expert" correct this particular foot position either way. Just curious....Thanks. Dana PS: If you have not been "taught" the form, please don't comment! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 09:43:48 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Going to the history horse's mouth Dear Mr. Tomlinson: " .....My post was meant for you to possibly be introspective as to where you are going with all of this posting. I feel that if you contact numerous Hapkido Grand Masters and get the info from them as they see it then your work will be more credible and precise....." I could not agree with you more. In doing that sort of research it is very important to carefully accrue as much documented data, and then prioritize anecdotal material. In the effort that you are referring to, however, there are actually TWO agendas. The first agenda is the one that you have identified, and perhaps you are speaking from the same past experiences that I have seen. In those cases someone asks a question and somebody gives an opinion and that opinion gets printed up as though it were gospel. This has a lot to do with where we find ourselves now. Better we should go to the GM's like Ji and Kimm and get to know what the actual players know, yes? The second agenda relates to the first, and this is the part that most researchers skip over. Essentially, that stage is to identify just exactly what it is that people-not- the-GM know or think they know about the issues. Most researchers start from the position of "well, the average joe doesn't know s***. Why waste the energy on them"? However, without going out and surveying the Hapkido population to determine what they know and don't know it is almost impossible to put together a clear and concise strategy for addressing the history and development of the art. To make matters worse, the two greatest stumbling blocks that I have run into are a retiscence on the part of the average Hapkido practitioner to disclose what they know (or don't know), and a passionate association with one person or position or another that does not allow for dialogue. I guess to use a simile', imagine that a bunch of vets are working on a survey history of the US. Without knowing who else is involved in the history of the country and using only their background, that overview could easily be nothing more that a litany of wars and military personnel. Does this help? Somewhere out in the cosmos there are people who have information about various personalities (like GM Pak), or philosophies (like those 9 tenents that Ray mentioned), or inter-relationships among biomechanics (how Korean swordsmanship relates to emptyhand techniques) and IMHO this is the stuff we need to be talking about. That's why I don't mind listening to all that stuff about various GM and who bought their rank, and who is inventing MA as they go along. Talk about that stuff if you have to. But I think the real issues are getting glossed over and we need to identify what we know and don't know and then sort it out with the assistance of our leadership. I hope this helps to clarify what I see as the goals for this effort. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 8:17:17 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: Even MORE on Hapkido > So GM Ji's art went from Hapkido to An Moo Kwan Hapkido (if I remember > correctly) to Sung Moo Kwan Hapkido to Sin Moo Hapkido? I presume that the > name changes signify evolutionary steps in his art. The Hapkido probably did evolve as some have labeled Hapkido as one of the first eclectic arts. But imo a kwan name change is just a change in the name of the school, or association of schools. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 09:56:33 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Ground Techniques or grounded techniques Dear Carsten: You have me very curious about a response that you made (in Vol #10 ??) about training with GM Lee in California on a carpet. Were the techniques that you are referring to "grounded techniques" (def: techniques typically executed from standing position and adapted to be executed from a seated or kneeling position ie: grounded side-kick, grounded elbow strike) or ground techniques, meaning unique techniques originally intended exclusively for grappling on the floor? I mention this because I have not been able to identify the latter techniques in the Daito-ryu curriculum though, of course the former could easily include chokes, locks and pins with which we are all familiar. I also wonder if such true ground-fighting techniques would then comprise a major contribution to the Hapkido curriculum not unlike the inclusion of taek kyon material by GM Ji and Kim. How say you? One other point, and I hope I don't raise any hackles here. There were a couple of people who advocated the inclusion of material over and above "traditional Hapkido" curriculum and justified it in terms of the natural progression of the art. Right off, I don't have a problem with this as long as it continues to honor the principles of Hapkido. What I am curious about is whether or not any of the pratitioners of Hapkido have attempted to connect with Daito-ryu practitioners (NOT Aikido) in an attempt to raise the sophisitication of their material. I include this in my note to you Carsten as it seems that GM Lee has done the best job of working to raise the sophisitcation of his art. However, I would love to hear from others who are working in this same direction, even if only informally. If this is a suject to sensitive for open discussion I would invited anyone to contact me through my website address bsims@midwesthapkido.com . Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: SallyBaughn@aol.com Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 11:16:52 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Knockouts Christopher wrote: << Certainly you're not saying that IN CLASS there are people who are getting knocked out, are you? While I see the necessity of training for WTF-style competition (IF you're going to regularly compete at trying to knock someone out at a local tournament, I guess) class knock-outs are one more reason why I would hesitate to engage in this activity. >> The mats are like insurance. You probably won't NEED them; but, if you do, you'll be glad you have them. As for getting knocked out in class, well, here's the deal. You don't mean to kick someone in the head, but you're practicing a wheel kick and you throw the kick and he steps right into it. He goes down. Or you throw a simple roundhouse, your opponent slips (or you misjudge timing or distance) and you connect. He goes down. I've seen that in ordinary training. Then you have elite competitors. They SPAR. They maybe hold back 10 percent. There are plenty of bruises, some breaks, occasional cuts, and once-in-awhile knockouts. It's the nature of the beast. Olympic-style TKD is not for everyone and (IMO) never was meant to be. I don't believe an instructor should insist on sparring and/or competition if a student isn't interested in it; but for those who love the sport, it's a valid choice. ------------------------------ From: "Shaun M. Fortune" Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 13:15:45 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Opinion Question I have a question for the list members. How would you feel about someone teaching martial arts who had never been in a fight? I'm really interested in answers from a variety of ages, ranks, arts, etc. and if there are any differences. Please feel free to email me directly. Thank you for your input. Shaun M. Fortune Taekwondo/hapkido _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 11:53:41 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #15 ******************************* It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.