From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #26 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 12 Jan 2001 Vol 08 : Num 026 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: mine is better than yours? the_dojang: RE: weights for tkd the_dojang: Re: Martial Way vs. Martial Art the_dojang: Re: Weights the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #25 the_dojang: Flu shots the_dojang: Weights Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #25 the_dojang: Re: Weights the_dojang: AOL header bugs ?? ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~999 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:06:00 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: mine is better than yours? > From: "David Salt" > Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 23:57:00 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: modern Korea > > My friend was mad because he had > taken TKD and wanted to study a more advanced style like KSW. I wasn't aware that KSW was more advanced than TKD. Please tell us which style is at the top of the heap so I can switch to it and not waste any more time. Kerry WTF TKD with tongue firmly in cheek ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:20:31 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: weights for tkd Ah yes...weightlifting and the martial arts. Well, I'll give my two cents. The standard advice I dispense on this subject (for what little it's worth) usually draws a little fire for two primary reasons...it's very blunt, and usually pisses off those who know even less about exercise physiology than I do (which ain't much). So, take my simple advice with a grain of salt...I've found that people either love it or hate it, with not much in between. Two major points: 1. Before you EVER even THINK about embarking on a weightlifting program, ask yourself a very simple question, "Where is my fitness level in terms of performing calisthenics/bodyweight exercises?". IMHO, most people begin exploring a weight training program without first exploring and expanding their abilities in the realm of simple bodyweight exercises...I believe this is WRONG. It makes no sense to do light-weight/high-rep lifts when you can just plop down on the floor and bang out push-ups or do free squats. Also, it makes no sense to do high-weight/low-rep lifts if you still struggle with 10 pushups or 30 free squats. Calisthenics are boring, tedious, and painful...but they WORK. Take a simple self-assessment before you ever hit the gym. How many quality reps can you perform of the following exercises utilizing your own bodyweight: pushups, pullups, free squats, sit-ups, dips, leg raises, divebombers, jump squats, lunges, crunches, crab walking, bear walking...the list goes on. If you're deficient in your ability to perform these movements, do you really need to start pumping iron? What's the benefit of lifting barbells and dumbbells if you're still having trouble manipulating your OWN weight? All of these movements will develop the exact same qualities that people look for in a weight training program, and they're simpler and more convenient. They develop strength, power, endurance, range of motion, body symetry, and muscle tone. Weight training just allows one to pick up the intensity. I'm just urging people to make sure that they can walk before they run. I know people who can bench 2x their own weight for multiple reps, but still struggle with 20 pushups and get spaghetti armed after one round of boxing. What's wrong with this picture? 2. Now here's the part where people get their panties in a wad because I don't pull ANY punches on this subject. Suffice it to say that I'm sick and tired of watching people WASTE THEIR TIME doing idiotic BODYBUILDING exercises, and thinking all the while that they're doing some sort of weight training that will translate into higher performance in their given sport. Yes, I'm talking about bicep curls, french presses, forearm curls, tricep kickbacks, lateral shoulder raises, and all those other Mickey Mouse isolation movements that have no place in an ATHLETE'S training regimen. Can you tell I'm passionate about this stuff? If you want to look good smothered in baby oil while flexing on stage...then by all means knock yourself out. Now, if you want functional power and strength that will translate to your martial arts practice then look no further than...compound movements. Very simple. Buy yourself a quality Olympic barbell set. Now go find someone who can help you learn the two competitive lifts used in international weightlifting...the snatch, and the clean and jerk. Folks, there are no other movements on the face of the earth that will develop power, stength, and BALANCE more than these two exercises. Need a third exercise? Add the deadlift from powerlifting. DO NOT bench press. This is the worst exercise ever devised by man, and is more along the lines of isolation movements to boot. Don't believe me? Go look at what iron guru Dr. Fred Hatfield says about the bench...it'll change your religion. When you perform martial arts you're using your entire body at once, all of your muscles are brought into play, simultaneously. The same can be said about the three lifts I mentioned. When you take this into consideration, it's not hard to see how silly it is to bang out endless reps of bicep curls. These three movements are also performed in a standing position which challenges the balance. In other words, even muscles that are not contributing directly to the contraction needed to complete the "movement" ARE being challenged through their role as stabilizers. It's not hard to see how these lifts help develop one's ATHLETICISM. Going back to Hatfield, go read his thoughts on how athlete's should use weight training in their programs. Your guessed it...they should do standing compound movments. Whew, I feel better after that rant. The problem lies in the fact that the 'Muscle & Fitness' and 'ESPN Bodyshaping' crowd has captured too much attention, and holds too much sway in terms of what our collective conscious considers to be "weight training". First of all, they just want to get you in a gym ASAP so you pay memberships, and buy workout gear, and gym bags, and supplements, and other worthless tripe. Then on top of that, EVERYONE is trained as if they were competing for the Mr. Olympia title. Stupid isolation movements that are far inferior to compound movements. I've got no problem with bodybuilding. Those guys (and gals) LOOK like monsters...but have you ever wondered why they don't go tear it up in the NFL or in professional boxing, and earn MILLONS in the process? Because their training doesn't impart or enhance any REAL athletic skill...bottom line is that they are NOT athletes. Go look in Europe and the former Eastern Bloc countries, and watch how they train their athletes. They haven't been tainted (YET) by the muscle beach culture that still dominates our (the U.S.) fitness training. They know the real deal. If you started doing all that curling and pressing in front of them they'd have a pretty good laugh at your expense. Now, before everyone tells me to take a chill pill, I REALIZE that people lift for different reasons just like people train martial arts for different reasons. If you want to look like Bob Paris or Trish Stratus then pump that iron, baby. Go for the BUUURRRRRNNNNN...no pain no gain! However, if you want to enhance and develop athletic ability that will in turn translate to greater performance in your chosen arena...then I believe in my heart that standing compound movements are more efficient and more effective. See, I told you that I'd make you mad... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Shaun M. Fortune" Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:41:23 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Martial Way vs. Martial Art >------------------------------ >From: "hununpa" *** snip *** >Well said. >Funakoshi Sensei advises that Karate (martial arts) can be taught for self >improvement purposes and/or self defense skills. >If you are teaching the martial way (mu-do), I would say the name of the >art, the moves, Kata, poomse, hyung, etc. are only parts of the vehicle to >self improvement. This brings up a question I've been thinking more and more about lately. The way I teach in my school is much more "Martial Way" than "Martial Art" (mudo vs. musul). Is this something I should verbally tell people right away when they are beginning? Does this mean I should not call what I teach martial art? I make it clear from the start that the emphasis in our school is on the "do" and all that. I think most students who have been in our school for a while understand this, but is it "false advertising" to say that I teach martial art? I recently had a long-time student leave the school because he thought we weren't doing enough sparring and/or self-defense training. (He actually thought they were the same thing and that was one of the problems he was having with the way I was teaching, but that's another story. :) I just wonder if things could have been different if he had a different perception of what we were doing. I would have thought after so long in the school that he would have recognized the way our school runs, but should I have done more to make it clearer? Note that I'm not apologizing for teaching the way I do. I just wonder if saying "Martial Art" is misleading to the general public. Any input? Thank you, Shaun M. Fortune Taekwondo/hapkido _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Sarah Pride Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:51:24 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Weights >>> OK. The posts on weights were for the most part "gym lore" and not reflective of scientific conditioning principles. For example, you do not need to work until failure to get a training effect. Nor is there a great relationship that can be generalized about sets, reps, and weight. It depends, based on actual scientific research, to be specifically related to your muscle fiber type, place in your training macrocycle, etc. <<< Did anyone see anything in my post about what I had heard at the gym? If so, they need their eyesight checked. I have never gone to a "gym," as my parents have filled our basement full of weight benches, chin-up bars, leg extension/leg press/pulldown combo machines, and dumbbells. Everything I mentioned in my post was learned from "actual scientific research" in magazine articles and slowly phased into my workouts to check effects. I put in nothing I have not actually done myself. I never said you had to work until failure to get a training effect. Only to get your _best_ training effect. Those extra few reps really make the difference. That is the only thing about my sets, reps, etc. that is important to remember... I never said she had to follow the exact same pattern as I did, though I provided it as a framework to build upon if she so desired. >>> So please, if you aren't a certified trainer, please keep the myths to yourself. People will assume you know what you are talking about and take the bad advice. I'm certain no one on the list would purport to give advice about a martial art in which they had no formal training. <<< First, the lady asked for advice from martial artists who worked out with weights. I have both those qualifications, so I felt that I was allowed to post information that I have learned. Notice: _I have results._ Did you happen to see that my strength in every upper-body part has doubled? And what do you consider as "formal training" in a martial art? From the context it appears you meant actually doing it. As I said, I have been weightlifting for two years now. Would you say that a martial artist should never give tips to a lower belt level until he or she has studied the art longer than two years? Or that the process of having college or high-school students tutor other students should be abolished? I never give hearsay advice without mentioning it as such. Do you, Mr. Reed, know for a fact that what I said does not work - or did you only hear it. - -Sarah Pride- ------------------------------ From: foxdragon@cuttingedge.net Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:35:59 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #25 > From: "hununpa" > Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 00:27:08 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: Women's Defense > > > > In another life I taught Women's Self Defense Courses. > Someone would always ask, Do you advise carrying a gun or pepper spray? > > My Mantra, > Can you clean it, practice regularly with it, and point it at the center of > mass (or eyes) and pull the trigger without hesitation? If not, statistics > tell us that bringing a gun to a violent crime can only insure that a gun > will be involved in said crime, neh? > > Also, it is very hard to test fire/practice with pepper spray, and the eyes > as part of the head can be easy to move out of the line of fire. > My point exactly. I was sort of being sarcastic when I typed that statement. I see no reason to carry something that may or may not work as a deterrent. I want a sure thing, not something that may work against me. > > With dedication and training you should be able to put 6 shots in a 6" > pattern from zero to 25 paces with most quality hand guns legally available, > that is if you can pull the trigger without hesitation . > I can do this. At least, I used to when I owned a handgun; but, I saw no sense in keeping the thing. In Wisconsin, you need a permit to carry it and it has to be unloaded and cased. So, why have it? > > On to logistics. In Georgia, it is not so easy to get a > concealed carry > permit, but perfectly legal to wear a gun exposed. I'd > say a woman with a > Glock .40 on her hip would be a strong visual deterrent > If you actually hit your assailant with a handgun, be > prepared to be > arrested, questioned, and possibly required to post bond > until the > authorities are comfortable that your actions are indeed > self-defense...This > is also true of pepper spray, but you may not get cuffed > and arrested. > > As for me, I used to carry a Bali-song because of the > options it offers both > closed and open. But working for the government, I am > constantly in and out > of Courthouses and so no metal...However, as an Engineer, > I usually have a > pen and pencil in my shirt pocket, and always have a belt > on > > I also know some rather healthy men under age 35 that > always Cary a cane to > the airport > I guess now that I'm over 35 I might NEED a cane > > Unless my knees get any worse, I will not have one around. Chances are, I would forget to bring it. Donna ------------------------------ From: "Diane Goodman" Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:38:27 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Flu shots Enough on flu shots already. It's highly unlikely that getting a flu shot would GIVE you the flu (because they use dead germs) - at least not give you the strain of flu you were innoculated against. It's more likely that you would pick up a DIFFERENT strain of flu - they never can predict which of those little buggers are going to come down the pike in a given year in time to develop vaccines against them all. And several years ago a flu vaccine was associated with the development of Guillian-Barre syndrome in a few people. But a lot of folks use that "getting a shot might give me the flu" excuse just because they're not fond of injections. I have been getting a flu shot every year for the past seven or eight years, and have not gotten the flu while everyone around me was getting it. It all comes down to individual preferences - if flu shots work for you, get them; if you'd rather not, that's OK too. Diane ------------------------------ From: hogwldfltr@cs.com Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:46:28 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Weights Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #25 > > From: David Reed > Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 18:36:03 -0800 > Subject: the_dojang: Weights > Snipping.. > If you are looking for good advice see a trainer.  Alternately, > egroups.com has a martial arts conditioning list moderated by one of the > most experienced professional trainers around, Charles Staley. Thanks, what a great recommendation. Just what I need. - -Lee Greybeard in Tucson ------------------------------ From: Gary Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:50:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Weights > So please, if you aren't a certified trainer, please keep the myths to > yourself. People will assume you know what you are talking about and > take the bad advice. I'm certain no one on the list would purport to > give advice about a martial art in which they had no formal training. David- Well, since my response was one of those to which you seem to be referring, I feel obliged to respond. :) First off, I am not a certified trainer. The only thing close to formal training I have had in this area are a few anatomy and physiology courses I had when I flirted with the idea of med school. So why did I give the advice I did? My first recommendation was for the interested individual to check out http://www.stumptuous.com/weights.html, a web page which I think gives some nice general advice to women who are starting lifting (men to, actually). Your mention of Mr. Staley reminded me of the page www.myodynamics.com, which is also an excellent resource on the subject. It has an article by him on women and weight lifting which is quite good. At this point I want to say that I fully agree with you that the best course when starting a weight program is to consult with a trainer. Seeing that they are certified or have a degree in exercise physiology is also a good idea (make sure they are not a trainer just because they are huge). My second comment was that lifting probably wouldn't make her to huge. Both of the websites mentioned above go into why this is unlikely. My third comment was to mention that a program of doing a lot of light sets was going to work muscle endurance while fewer, heavier sets would be better for speed and strength. This is the one which you seem to refer to as a "gym myth". Now I mentioned this because when I started lifting, I thought doing lots reps at a medium weight was best for what I wanted (strength & speed). Then I went to a trainer. In fact I went to two trainers, at different times. One had a bachelors in Exercise Physiology, the other in Exercise and Sport Science. Both told me that if I wanted strength & speed, I should do lower reps at higher weight. The explanation of this was the same both times. To perform fast, strong motions (like an explosive kick), one needs to work both the fast twitch and slow twitch fibers of the muscles involved. Since the body will recruit the slow-twitch fibers first, heavier weights are used to force the body to also recruit (and thus train) the fast-twitch fibers. Less reps are performed because, with heavier weights, you can't do as many. So, if that bit of advice is a "gym myth", its one I learned from two different trainers with degrees in exercise physiology. A myth that has apparently wormed its way into the curriculums of both the University of Illinois and the University of Colorado. So basically I'm just trying to clarify where I got my information from. It wasn't from some thick-necked monstrosity on the bench next to me who happened to grunt "Big weight GOOD!" one day, but instead from two different trainers who I believe had good credentials. By the way, have you picked up a copy of Staley's "The Science of Martial Arts Conditioning"? I've been meaning to get one and haven't yet. If you have it, how about a book review? GK ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:33:53 PST Subject: the_dojang: AOL header bugs ?? FYI, a few msgs from AOL folks are being rejected by Majordomo due to errors in the email header. I'll keep an eye on it to see if it gets corrected soon. Not sure if the problem is on the AOL end or somewhere in between. If you sent something in and don't see it please resend. Thx. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #26 ******************************* It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.