From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #27 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 12 Jan 2001 Vol 08 : Num 027 In this issue: the_dojang: Weight training and martial arts the_dojang: Don't break your toys the_dojang: Tak Kalbi and Kyongju the_dojang: RE: weights for tkd the_dojang: background checks ? the_dojang: Weights Re: the_dojang: Weights the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~999 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Weller Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 17:37:56 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Weight training and martial arts Go ahead Craig, tell us how you REALLY feel! Don't hold back! Great post, with good solid information. Keep up the good work. I do have a friend who trains in TKD with me who is also a bodybuilder. He does the whole g-string oil up thing too... (not me... EVER!) From watching him after becoming a dedicated bodybuilder I would say that his martial arts training has enhanced his bodybuilding more than the other way around. But, this is purely anecdotal stuff, kinda like the flu shot stuff (I've had 'em, never made me sick, but hey, us TKD people are TOUGH !!) Off to a sweat filled evening at the Dojang, dave weller ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:05:34 EST Subject: the_dojang: Don't break your toys >>>Of course, players who practice kwan je sul and kup so (joint manipulations and vital/pressure points) have even greater challenges, as we usually include some rules (tapping out, no head kup so, not activating two kup so at once, etc..) and safety precautions (mats) to allow our training partners to remain reusable.<<<< I always like to say if we hurt our training partners, who are we going to train with? That's why safety in training is important. (That and we just don't want to hurt our friends, and fellow students) My friend Marc likes to say if you break your toys (training partners) you won't have anything to play with. Alain ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:09:13 EST Subject: the_dojang: Tak Kalbi and Kyongju I feel sorry for all of you that didn't get to go our for tak kalbi after your Hapkido class yesterday. :-) Sorry, couldn't help but mention is, since it was so good. (For those that don't know what tak Kalbi is, it is chicken cut up with a spicy sauce that is cooked right there at your table stirred with vegatables, etc.) Spicy and very good! Off to Kyongju for the weekend, the old capital of Shilla. Great city for seeing historic places. Stay Safe, Alain ------------------------------ From: Sarah Pride Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:52:01 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: weights for tkd I actually agree with a lot of what Mr. Craig Stovall said in his post, especially the part where he said it was a little blunt. ;) However, I have a few comments to make, from my elevated knowledge and understanding (that's a joke. Makin' sure everyone knows). 1. I agree that you should analyze your current state of fitness before you start off on weightlifting, and that you should use as many bodyweight exercises as possible in your workout. I use pushups for a combo exercise and something called "bench dips" (suspend self with back to bench or raised surface, supported with hands on bench and feet flat on floor about three ft. away from bench. Raise and lower self) for triceps. However, I am a female who unfortunately can still not do a single pullup. To exercise my back fully, I thus do some pulldowns on the pulldown machine. I also do bicep exercises to counter the bench dips. >>>If you're deficient in your ability to perform these movements, do >>>you really need to start pumping iron?<<< The obvious answer is that, since a lot of dumbbells and barbells are lighter than your own bodyweight, you can use them to build up at a regulated rate. In my opinion, it doesn't matter either way whether you want to follow the weightlifting path or not, as both ways give results. In my experience, I find it easier to stay enthused and improve with the weights, since I have easily-documented proof of improvement. Obviously, once you become proficient at the "natural" exercises, it helps to augment them with the increased weight of dumbbells. I always do my squats and lunges with dumbbells in hand. 2. I also hate the bench press with barbells. I've found it works much better with dumbbells, since you move them inwards as you lift and thus stress the chest muscles more. Plus there's less chance for elbow strain. At any rate, I wouldn't call isolation movements "Mickey Mouse." I agree completely that you should never "isolate" one muscle without also "isolating" its counterparts. That's why I exercise chest vs. back and triceps vs. biceps. If you exercise only one side of a body part, you may actually decrease your overall power. Those three exercises you mentioned are all great to do. However, if you do the same three all the time your muscles may get used to them and lessen the overall effect. That's why it's a good thing to have several different types of exercises up your sleeve, so to speak, to switch out the exact muscles being worked. Just to let everyone know, my personal upper-body workout takes less than 45 minutes once a week. I have indeed seen great improvement in my punching power and speed. Classmates actually noticed it first, and commented on it. - -Sarah Pride- P.S. I fear I was a little irritated when I responded to Mr. Reed in my last post. I had already gone through my first wave of annoyance, during which I do not want to be anywhere near a keyboard. By the time I got through the response I typed, deleted it, and started over, I had entered my second wave of cold sarcasm. It was easier and faster to type a response the second time through, so I had not yet cooled down completely. I apologize if any of it was as offensive to Mr. Reed as his was to me. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 17:33:13 PST Subject: the_dojang: background checks ? Curious... Any of you instructors out there (or your teachers for the students) that do background checks on a potential student prior to beginning instruction? Pros? Cons? with that experience. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: David Reed Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 17:23:14 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Weights Unfortunately, it appears that we can't have a reasonable discussion on weights. So, as a former competitor in olympic and powerlifting events over the last 25 years, a coach for the US Army TKD team, a certified trainer from a couple of organizations, and a trainer of world class martial arts competitors, I would say my comments do carry more validity than two years of do-it-yourself training. Also, you have no idea of my motives, choosing to take this personally and trivializing the issue. I am offended that you did not choose to respond personally so I'll be as blunt in turn. Fact: magazine articles, particularly from the "fitness" industry are crap. The former senior VP of Muscle and Fitness and all the other Weider mags will tell you this. They put that crap in because they have to sell magazines. How many bicep articles can they have? There is no complexity to this but M&F has had ten article last year alone. Why? Gullable, uninformed folks; typically men, want bigger arms. Give them what they want to sell mags, period. The quality is ridiculous. Serious, informed folks don't read them for training advice. Fact: training to failure does not give the best training effect. If you would like documented quotes I'll give them but then I expect a formal apology given your disrespectful tone. Fact: your framework would work for anybody who is untrained. Any different weight stress will provide stimulus and progress. However, it is far from optimal. Your results would have come from almost any sort of routine. Again, in academic and scientific studies this has shown to be the case so your results prove nothing. My results are those of elite athletes. I'll try once again. We have a responsibility to provide accurate input to this list as we have no idea who the audience is. We also have a responsibility for civil dicourse representing, hopefully, the ideals that martial arts are supposed to foster. Being a woman who's lifted a few weights does not qualify you to make blind recommendations just because you feel like it. At least couch your comments in a reasonable experiental context so some female white belt who thinks you must be "Master Pride", doesn't start a weight routine which may even be medically unsound for them. Besides being wrong there is a liability issue involved. And I didn't "hear" that: I asked a good attorney before my last post. I was hoping to save some folks from possible legal trouble including Ray. Next time, take this kind of stuff offline and lose the ego. You may actually learn something. David Reed, PhD 7th Dan ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:43:16 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: Weights > you would like documented quotes I'll give them but then I expect a > formal apology given your disrespectful tone. Well..... I'd say that should go both ways. When attacked people will often return the attack. Both of you please take it offline. Thanks. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:01:49 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #27 ******************************* It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. 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