From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #34 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 17 Jan 2001 Vol 08 : Num 034 In this issue: the_dojang: Re; Sparring a transvestite the_dojang: RE: the transvestite the_dojang: re: sparring a transvestite the_dojang: Re: Sparring a transvestite the_dojang: Re: Sparring a Transvestite the_dojang: Re: Sparring a transvestite the_dojang: Sparring a transvestite the_dojang: RE: studies and weapon use the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #33 the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~999 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bernard G Redfield Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 21:37:48 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re; Sparring a transvestite I am not a woman , My first question is , post -op or pre-op, if this a GUY with all the APENDAGES of a GUY then HE is a GUY, Period. I don't care what HE thinks HE is. If it is a Post Op.(no trouser trout) then how long ago, it has to have been switched awhile ago for the estrogen to have totally taken over the Testostoren, (ie) boobs , no facial hair , high pitched voice(not forced), then well, o.k.if the governing body says so, I do know some kick ass big womaen who would love to take on an artificial woman, just to takem down. Blunt, ? yes I am, thats how it is. Ladies? whats your take? ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 22:02:32 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: the transvestite First of all, from the description this person sounds like a transexual rather than a transvestite...BIG difference. Other than that...I am absolutely without words. All I can say is: Athletic Supporter = $20 Cotton dobok = $40 Sparring gear = $75 Receiving an e-mail about cross-dressing martial artists = PRICELESS There are some things money CAN buy...for everything else, there's the Dojang Digest. Would anyone care to join me in a drink...because this calls for one. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Anthony or Clare Boyd" Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 17:01:48 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: re: sparring a transvestite As the situation presented seems too odd to be anything but the truth, I will respond seriously. My wife ( a biological woman who lives as a woman) and I (a biological male who lives like a dog) are in complete agreement when we offer our opinion that "unfair" is the proper description for this scenario. If there are different divisions based on gender for this tournament then that premise is based on competition fairness. Regardless of the desires of a transvestite to be the opposite sex, they are not that sex. They take whatever biological traits their gender possesses into the ring with them no matter what's in their wardrobe. I feel that a large part of modern martial arts is learning to deal with the truth about ourselves rather than allowing desire to colour our actions. Anyway... ------------------------------ From: DrgnSlyr5@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 03:17:56 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Sparring a transvestite In a message dated 1/16/2001 5:17:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I would like opinions from fellow martial artist regarding a sensitive issue. We have a new student at our dojang who lives as a women but is biologically a man. A very big, strong man! "She" is very nice and a talented martial artist. She will be competing in our upcoming tournament in the women's sparring division. How would you, as a women, feel about sparring " her" in a tournament situation? >> If biologically a man, he should spar in the men's division, regardless of whether he wears a dress and makeup to the tournament. It's a shame if your officials are bowing to political "correctness" rather than enforcing tournament entry based on the biological facts of this case, especially since those facts seem to be common knowledge. If your head instructor approves the current divisional assignment, you have little recourse except to respectfully appeal his/her decision. I would take that route if confronted with your situation. However, rather than just protesting the assignment, go in prepared to offer an alternative. One is to handle the situation with weight classes. If there are no women in his weight class, he needs to fight in a different division - men's. Barring change, you need to decide (based on your knowledge of this person's skill and control level) if the benefits of competing outweigh the risk of injury. DS ------------------------------ From: SallyBaughn@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 07:32:42 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Sparring a Transvestite Donna S. wrote: << I would like opinions from fellow martial artist regarding a sensitive issue. We have a new student at our dojang who lives as a women but is biologically a man. A very big, strong man! "She" is very nice and a talented martial artist. She will be competing in our upcoming tournament in the women's sparring division. How would you, as a women, feel about sparring " her" in a tournament situation? >> Well, having seen something like this happen before, I'd say I wouldn't spar "her." The situation I saw was actually a transsexual situation where a man had all the operations and hormonal therapy and had become a woman. She did become somehow "softer," but was still larger and had more strength (and more knowledge of how to use her strength) than the other women. Because she had been an extremely competitive man, she was an extremely competitive woman - -- and that's something you rarely see at "local" levels. The other women were flatly out-classed. Having said all that, I would also add that (IMO), just wearing the clothes doesn't make you a woman. If "she" is biologically a man, "she" should be competing in the men's divisions so long as there are divisions based on gender. Sally ------------------------------ From: Mary Braud Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 06:32:56 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Sparring a transvestite Donna, My opinion on your post: Hmmm, if there is an appropriate weight/belt division for 'her', (i.e. there are other similarily sized and belt classified competitors in 'her' division, then I see no REAL issue, except for the knowledge that 'she' is a man. However, in my experience, usually, at open tournaments, a woman who has a distinctive height/weight advantage, if there is no other similarily sized competition, is usually placed with the 'closest match'. She may have to fight competitors one or two levels above her. What this does is takes away the 'physical' advantage because her competitors have more training. Does this work? I really don't know. And you mention that 'she' is a talented martial artist. Higher rank, perhaps? If so, then the above scenario is completely thrown out... For example, at a green belt level, someone who is two belt levels ahead of you may have been training, say for a maximum of a year (long time, I know) more than you. However, at black belt level, there can be 3 or more years between dan classifications... I've been rambling on too much, so I'll wrap it up by saying that a person's gender preferences should have no 'exposure' in the dojang. I mean that it's a private issue, and should not be made public just because 'she' wants to compete in a local tournament. (If it's a little bigger than that, than there may be legal issues involved, I don't know.) I would just say that unless there are other women involved that are same belt level, and can somewhat match up in height/weight, (use your own judgement here), then place 'her' with higher belt ranks so that 'her' size/weight/strength is offset by more expertise... I know, I know... It's not always going to work, but this is just my opinion. Sorry for the long post, just expressing my opinion on a tricky topic. Regards, Mary Braud ------------------------------ From: "Ates, Michelle (ATESML)" Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 08:51:01 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Sparring a transvestite If I knew my opponent was a man dressing as a woman I would still fight them just as hard as any other opponent. However, I would not have very much respect for them as a martial artist. I have always been taught a big part of being a black belt is to be honorable, and I am sorry a man is a man and how honorable can a man like that be? Michelle Ates Systems Development & Maintenance Analyst University of Cincinnati Department of Internal Medicine Division of Infectious Diseases Infectious Disease Center Michelle.Ates@UC.Edu ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 08:18:11 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: studies and weapon use GK, Thanks for the DOJ website link. I had not thought of that. It does contain a lot of analysis on reported crime. Some is very interesting. Particularly the rate of people per thousand out of the population that experience violent crime in a year. It will take a little time to go through all the tables and determin exactly what they mean. Danny Dunn >>>>>>>> The U.S. Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Statistics puts out a yearly report on crime. If you go to their website at- http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs you can slog your way through to get to the latest report for 1998. For the shortcut to just the yearly reports on crime go to- http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/cvusst.htm They basically try to break down a years worth of crime into all sorts of little categories- what happened, where, to whom etc. Table 72 under the heading "The Crime Event" deals with victims who used some form of self defense (fighting, screaming, running etc.) and their perception of how it helped/hurt them (in 98). The majority in each category of crime thought it helped. Check out the site. Lots of information on crime and law enforcement in the U.S.<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 08:33:00 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #33 Donna, First, I am not a woman so you can take this as unsolicited advice. Regardless of physicology or lifestyle, gender is a biological function determined by chromosones and that fact can not be changed. I can tell you that I would only allow this person to compete in the appropriate men's divisions in my tournament. I am not implying that females can not beat males in competition, but pound for pound, men have a definite advantage on average as adults. This is the reason that competition is segregated into men's and women's divisions in the first place. In the dojang is a different matter. In my school, everyone spars everyone, regardles of of size or gender. Danny Dunn >>>>>>>>>>>>I would like opinions from fellow martial artist regarding a sensitive issue. We have a new student at our dojang who lives as a women but is biologically a man. A very big, strong man! "She" is very nice and a talented martial artist. She will be competing in our upcoming tournament in the women's sparring division. How would you, as a women, feel about sparring " her" in a tournament situation? Just curious, Donna S.<<<<<<<<<< ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 7:32:24 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #34 ******************************* It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.