From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #44 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sat, 20 Jan 2001 Vol 08 : Num 044 In this issue: the_dojang: Dojangs in Ontario? the_dojang: New WTF rules continued the_dojang: RE: HKD/TKD cross training the_dojang: RE: Getting my kicks.... the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #43 the_dojang: The seminar in Ms. the_dojang: Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 15:05:40 -0600 the_dojang: Falling in love with a student the_dojang: KDOA the_dojang: reasons for MA and choke defense the_dojang: Re: motivation and flying 720 kicks Re: the_dojang: Re: motivation and flying 720 kicks the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 13:54:24 EST Subject: the_dojang: Dojangs in Ontario? Someone I know up in Canada is looking to get into the martial arts. Does anyone know of a good school near him? When I asked him where he was, he replied with: >>Well, I live in Oakville, Ontario - right next to Mississauga/Toronto. There are several martial arts places within easy walking distance of where I live right now, which is one of the factors I was considering. Given how gas prices are going up, up, UP, I'd rather not drive too much. :P<< Can someone help, please? Craig ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 19:56:23 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: New WTF rules continued Hello, I just found out that on February 22-23, Technical Seminar for the WTF will be held in Seoul. The subject will be the new competition rules for both sparring and the World Taekwondo Muye Championships (Poomse, Kyokpa, Self-Defense, Spirit of Taekwondo - whatever it means :). There are several very interesting suggestions in the draft agenda for the above event, like for example different proposals for match duration in sparring (4 x 2 mins, 2 x 3 mins, 1 x 5 mins...), graduated scoring system by attacking area, extension of permitted scoring areas, simplification of Kyong-go and Gam-jeom penalties and referee`s hand signals. Presidents and Technical Directors of the member national associations are invited to this event. I think the results of the discussions at the above seminar will be most interesting for all TKD competitors... Regards - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 13:55:45 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: HKD/TKD cross training Dear Dave and Shaun: Thanks for the feedback. Apparently I'll need to chaulk this one up to circumstances rather than policies or procedures. Coincidentally this was kind of what I had in mind in a recent discussion I was part of concerning Korean tradition and how Korean martial tradition evolves. I've been mulling over a theory that rather than an exception, informal development of the Korean martial tradition may have historically been the rule. Somehow I can't shake the feeling that all this heavy emphasis on protocol, positions, titles, rank, advancement and organizations is something that was exported to Korea and applied to the martial traditions rather than being an integral part of their development or maintanence as in Japan or China. As I say this is just some musings but I seem to keep seeing little indications or clues turn up every so often (like Korean MA teachers being referred to as "teacher" or 'great teacher" rather than "GM" or "SGM". It just seems that personalities in Korean, relatively speaking, just aren't as hung up as everyone else outside of Korea.Could be wrong.) Anyhow thanks for your thoughts. I suppose I'll just have to kick this around some more and see what turns up. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 14:09:30 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Getting my kicks.... Dear Lee: Thanks for the input on the development of kicking techniques. I bet that informal way of instructing was much more prevalent than we give it credit for. Problem is that it is also much harder to document if you want to do the history thing. I was also wondering if anyone has ever done any nosing around to see if the use of kicking techniques is much more prevalent among pastoral/herding cultures. The reason I mention it is that I remember years ago a guest commented to me about the amount of development that occurs in the hips and legs when using horses to herd as well as the long trekking that herdsmen do afoot. The legs become particularly important and ways are found to incorporate all that strength in combat techniques. It made sense for a while but I would have to see it turning up with quite a bit of frequency around the world before I would give it credence. Another point that was raised recently by my sword teacher was that given the necessity of disengaging a weapon from an opponents body, perhaps kicking techniques could have gotten a start by using the foot to drive the enemys' body from the point of a spear or the blade of a sword. The more sophisticated kicking techniques could have developed with time. I had been nosing around a bit regarding the development of armour to see if any clues might turn-up about this but can't say that I have found anything of note. I know most people start with checking out weapons first, but I think that what you are wearing in combat would have a whole lot more to do with attempting kicking techniques than necessarily the weapon you may have intended to use. Just some thoughts for a Saturday afternoon. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 15:22:35 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #43 In a message dated 1/20/01 11:49:42 AM Central Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << George says, What ever works for you Steven and Alain. I prefer to forget about the choke and attack directly to the eyes or throat with multiple strikes done in rapid succession. A cool head will always prevail in these situations. Of course there are many ways to get rid of the choke, but.... george petrotta >> And why not just palm heel the assailant's jaw and break it? gary ------------------------------ From: HKDHW@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 15:34:05 EST Subject: the_dojang: The seminar in Ms. We have purchased our tickets and are heading towards Jackson Ms. I hope to see all the people whom I have been e-mailing and chatting with over the years. Several of my students will also attend with me including Jack O and big John whom will meet us there since he has relocated to the sunny state of Florida. I have sent numerous letters to all my Hapkido friends hopping they to will attend so as to train, Bond, And meet new people whom share a common interest. I am personally looking forward to this because JR West is my friend and he is always there when anyone needs him. I still am not sure what I am going to teach But the cane has come Up..... Hal Whalen ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 16:38:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 15:05:40 -0600 Dear Folks, I don't know but I read that list of reasons for a person deciding to train in MA and I just don't see it in this day and age. Maybe a lot of those things were valid sometime back when people bought into a lot of the myth and magic about MA. But its been quite a few years from the 60-s and 70-s and I just don't see people approaching MA in the way that list of priorities might dictate. Here's some of what I run into: Martial arts as opportunity to meet and greet (usually someone of the opposite sex). The people who approach MA for this will join a club or take a seminar but its not often the will sign a contract for this reason unless maybe there is some sort of preditory motive. Martial arts as novelty or recreation. People sign up to see what its "like". Their bored and could have as easily signed up for softball, volleyball, skydiving or basket-weaving. They will stick around until they blink their eyes and find a whole new set of priorities in the world. MA as refuge. I bet a lot of people who talk about using MA as self-defense either anticipate a bad experience or have had a bad experience. The interest in MA is a reaction to this. Once they find out that it will give them a decent system of self-defense they sign=up. Once they find out that system comes with a hefty price tag in time (months, years) and effort (mucho sweat and discomfort) they drop out and choose to keep a tire iron under their car seat instead. Ma art as fantasy material. Having OD'd on Bruce Lee Movies and one too many episodes of WALKER, TEXAS RANGER the MA candidate can't wait to put on a dobok and check themselves out in the mirror. Its not the MA they want, it's the IDEA of MA. Comes the sweat and time investment, they take off like their cousins mentioned above. MA as battlefield. You don't even have to sign up for this. Just get on the Internet and start challenging people about what they know and don't know about the subject. The trick is not to carry-on a productive discussion and effective exchange of information. Rather, the idea is to build yourself up by putting other people down. But be very careful, its incredibly important not to actually do anything productive with your belief systems I suppose this must sound incredibly cynical. I will also add that this list is much more representative of the MA population I run into on a regular basis. Sure, I wish there were students heavily invested in changing themselves, truly learning skills and willing to make a commiment to the arts for some reason other than what they can get out of it. Once in a while I meet such people. But I would be less than honest if I pretended that they are anything but rare. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: HKDHW@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 16:18:43 EST Subject: the_dojang: Falling in love with a student What happens when an instructor or Master falls in love with a student? I am sure this happens both share a common interest and relationships and friendships are made in the DoJang. I see it all the time (friendships). In some cases I am sure an instructor could take advantage of a student crossing the student / teacher relationship. I am talking about when two people fall in love and the student receives no special treatment and is treated in the DoJang as another student no more no less. This has happened to me I have fallen in love with a student. Whom wanted to quit my class so it would not interfere with our relationship, Yet I would not let her quit and she is Happy I did not. I asked advice from several of my seniors on what should I do and once again the man from Ms. Told me what to expect and was very supportive in my decision. If I thought I had disgraced my DoJang or the art I would have hung up my Belt and not looked back ever ... The hard part was telling my students whom have been very supportive as has My Master Whom wants us to visit him in Korea. Hal ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 14:16:32 PST Subject: the_dojang: KDOA Forwarding. Ray --------------------------------------------------------------- Alliance Drug Free Open Martial Arts Tournament (Sponsored by the Alliance Police Department and Alliance City Schools) May 5th, 2001 Stanton Middle School S. Union Ave (SR 183) and Broadway Ave. Alliance, Ohio All proceeds will support area drug education programs: Kick Drugs Out Alliance (KDOA) and Students Against Destructive Decisions (SADD) On-Site Tournament Coverage will include GRANDMASTER MAGAZINE, TO SERVE AND PROTECT: THE REAL STORY (TELEVISION SHOW), and local press. An official press release will be provided to the major martial arts periodicals on the tournament results. For More Information Contact: Jeff Helaney (330) 821-9140 ext. 132 or Jan Webler (330) 821-2105 http://hometown.aol.com/kdoa2/tournament1.html ------------------------------ From: Deborah Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 18:14:16 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: reasons for MA and choke defense Shaun wrote: "I know this is a matter of opinion, but I think competition has very little, if any, place in martial arts/martial ways..." I agree with this completely. Over the years one of the instructors I work with has often made the comment that tournament fighting is about sport while martial arts is about reality. As an instructor, it has become more clear to me that the training for each is distinct. What I would add to the list of reasons for MA training is focus. The ability to control one's mind and to be focused is one of the ingredients that keeps me involved. Alain writes:"I don't care for this "plucking" defense because often a person will have trouble doing it against a stronger person..." Being someone on the smaller side, I agree. A method I have tried and which seems to work against people much larger than myself is to throw one arm (say the right) over their arms while both bringing the weight down and at the same time turning sideways into a horse stance, locking their arms in your armpit. Then follow with an elbow strike to the head. During the turn you can reach up simultaneously with the left hand to hold their right hand that is against the neck but now has become loosened in grip because of the turn and followup. Now you can pluck, using a Hapkido hold to lock the wrist. Maybe with a person who is really determined to choke, you still wouldn't have enough space to get a good hold on their hand...? The main ingredient as I see it is to get them to loosen the hold momentarily and to get them to lose their center of balance momentarily and then to take advantage of these weaknesses before they disappear. George says, "What ever works for you Steven and Alain. I prefer to forget about the choke and attack directly to the eyes or throat with multiple strikes done in rapid succession. A cool head will always prevail in these situations. Of course there are many ways to get rid of the choke, but...." Okay, but if your strikes don't immediately work, how long do you have before you pass out from a real choke? If a person is really choking you, maybe they don't care if they are being hurt at the same time? I think the idea of getting the choke eased and then immediately following up makes more sense. One issue here is having the presence of mind and the willingness to attack to the eyes. I find the idea of poking someone's eyes disturbing and while it makes sense to do to someone who is trying to choke you, I'm not sure that I would actually use this technique without hesitating first. We often talk about techniques that would be useful and effective, but the willingness to really use them against another person is something else, especially if it is not a stranger. Deborah ------------------------------ From: Jerry Lynde Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 16:13:11 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: motivation and flying 720 kicks At 06:40 PM 1/19/2001, GK wrote: > These are good ones, but I can think of at least one more that I >believe attracts a lot of people- martial arts are cool. > C'mon, fess up, how many people out there started because they saw >"Enter the Dragon" and decided that learning how to beat up 100 people, >one at a time, while making weird monkey noises was absolutely necessary. >Pop culture has probably caused more people to join MA's then anything >else (at least in America). Most of them wander off after realizing that >they won't become a Ninja Assassin in 10 easy lessons, but others hang on >when they find out that it's still fun and valuable, even if it's hard >work. And hey, even though I know that doing a flying 720 degree kick is >not the most practical self defense technique, I still have to try it >sometimes, especially after watching a Jet Li movie. Preferably when no >one else is watching though, so I don't have to explain why I threw myself >at the floor like that. Absolutely!! I was a teenage ninja wanna-be who is now in it for all the good. I used to make the monkey noises when I played hacky sack. What's really nice is there's an instructor in the area who will teach me those flying 720 kicks and how to do them properly. He also plays a mean game of Tekken Tag Tournament. Jer ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 16:11:30 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: motivation and flying 720 kicks > C'mon, fess up, how many people out there started because they saw >"Enter the Dragon" and decided that learning how to beat up 100 people, >one at a time, while making weird monkey noises was absolutely necessary. >Pop culture has probably caused more people to join MA's then anything >else (at least in America). Most of them wander off after realizing that >they won't become a Ninja Assassin in 10 easy lessons, but others hang on >when they find out that it's still fun and valuable, even if it's hard >work. And hey, even though I know that doing a flying 720 degree kick is >not the most practical self defense technique, I still have to try it >sometimes, especially after watching a Jet Li movie. Preferably when no >one else is watching though, so I don't have to explain why I threw myself >at the floor like that. One of the more humerous MA things I recall... It was a Shotokan tourny in about 1970 or so. Point system, mostly front kicks and reverse punches, very linear attacks. Then one match was about to begin... One opponent got into more of a low horse stance standing very sideways to the opponent who was in a more traditional forward facing front stance. The guy standing sideways put his rear hand up over his head, waved at his opponent, and started making a Bruce Lee bird sound. His opponent gave him a strange look. About that time the bird guy skipped in with a beautiful side kick and knocked down his opponent. As I reflect back I suspect the bird guy was not Shotokan as his uniform was as different as his tactics. Also the judges did not award him an ippon when he knocked his opponent down, only a half-point. Ippon was needed to win. He eventually lost... But I can still picture that guy making that funny sound, waving at his opponent like Curly of the Three Stooges, and then sliding in with a beautiful side kick to his opponent's ribs. Yes, in later years I once tried that same strategy, but it didn't work very well for me... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 16:14:04 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #44 ******************************* It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. 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