From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #47 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 22 Jan 2001 Vol 08 : Num 047 In this issue: the_dojang: UofI the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #33 the_dojang: My apologies to the ladies. the_dojang: Re: Not Competing the_dojang: Re: Romance in the Dojang the_dojang: Romance the_dojang: Competition the_dojang: Re: HKD Tournaments the_dojang: Falling in Love the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #46 the_dojang: Love in the Dojang the_dojang: RE: Yu sool, hapkido and stuff-like-that-there the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 17:01:47 PST Subject: the_dojang: UofI > You story reminded me of a similar encounter I witnessed at a Shudokan demo > in Champaign-Urbana. The UofI @ C-U was where I got my start in Tang Soo Do, ~30 years ago... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: CHa6671447@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 20:39:18 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #33 In a message dated 1/16/01 7:17:19 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << From: "critical care" Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 17:20:40 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Sparring a transvestite I would like opinions from fellow martial artist regarding a sensitive issue. We have a new student at our dojang who lives as a women but is biologically a man. A very big, strong man! "She" is very nice and a talented martial artist. She will be competing in our upcoming tournament in the women's sparring division. How would you, as a women, feel about sparring " her" in a tournament situation? Just curious, Donna S. >> i personally think that this is a touchy, but unfair situation. i feel that there is an unfair advantage being given to the new woman with XY chromosomes. she should either fight in the men's division or fight in the woman's division with those legs tied. let me know how it turns out. but on the other had, there are some women out there that could beat his new found be-hind into the ground. don't get me wrong, just because i wouldn't date her(he) doesn't mean that i hate her(her). i am a believer of letting everyone live, until they live on me. her(his) new found gender choice is one of her(his) own. The problem that I have is that it makes a mockery of the tournament and does not give each participating an equal opportunity to perform. chris jun tong mu sool ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 20:40:41 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: My apologies to the ladies. Apparently, some of my comments regarding the physical differences between males and females has caused some offense. I apologize for any hard feelings that may have risen due to my comments and/or examples. It's my sincere hope that I can learn from this list, and at the same time be a valued contributor. I would be saddened if my opinons were discounted over a petty misunderstanding. Just for clarification's sake: I was being honest when I used the example of the 100 meter dash...I think it's a valid example, and I stand behind the inherent lessons that this example teaches us. Regarding my post containing Andy Kaufman, and my wife's ability to "outdo" me in domestic matters...it was my intention to lampoon the chauvinistic attitudes that still pervade our society. However, it's my fear that some (if not many) did not recognize this intention, and perhaps now believe that I myself hold those same chauvinistic views that I despise. In short...it was a big joke. We're all born with certain gifts that we can use to our advantage, and at the same time we're born with certain weaknesses that we must somehow overcome. As individuals, our physical potential is determined largely by our genes. Like it or not, the action going on at the 23rd pair of chromosomes is a big determinant of your physical destiny. Marion Jones will never beat Maurice Green in a fair foot race, but within that disparity lies the diversity which allows our species (and ALL species) to even exist. Celebrate and accept our sexual diversity, and recognize "differences" for what they are...DIFFERENCES...not "strengths" or "weaknesses". I will no longer post here on this sensitive subject. If anyone has a bone to pick with me please contact me directly as enough of this list's space has already been taken up. Again, I apologize for speaking my version of the "truth"...I gotta go train now. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 23:40:57 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Not Competing In a message dated 1/21/2001 8:08:17 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I don't want this to come off as confrontational to you or anyone else. I only want to make sure that everyone is aware that just because someone studies TKD does not mean they are tournament-oriented. The ONLY tournament I even talk to my students about is the one my grandmaster holds annually and I only encourage them to GO, not necessarily to participate. This is out of respect for my GM and his school. >> Mr. Fortune, Wow ... I wasn't aware there were TKD schools out there that didn't compete. Did the school that you attend not compete or put much emphasis on competing or is this a personal preference ? Illona ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 23:49:51 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Romance in the Dojang In a message dated 1/21/2001 8:08:17 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Love can do interesting things in the dojang. Any women teach their husbands/boyfriends etc? I've never heard that point of view. >> My instructor's first wife and his second wife (whom he is still married to) were both students of his. He brought them both to black belt (1st degree) and they quit to raise a family. He continued on. I was there to train with and socialize with both of the women ... and I liked his first wife very much. His second wife I helped bring up in the ranks ... and unfortunately she was the first wife's best friend ... ! It got kinda messy and I wished it had never happened. But it did and there wasn't anything us students could do but sit back and watch it happen. While he was wooing the second student ... we (the senior students) had to literally take over all the classes to keep the school going. He lost a lot of students due to this ... many didn't agree with what he was doing ... but no one could disuade him. He seems very happy now and it was over 9 years ago this happened. What you have done seems OK to me ... as nothing was ever done inside the school ... no one knew ... and you kept it private. Many marriages have worked out in the martial arts world ... look at all the schools with both the wife and husband running them ! How many do we have here on this list ? Illona ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 01:03:26 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Romance Mark writes: > I was professional. I taught her the same way I always did, which was > exactly like I taught everyone else. You were more fortunate than I was Mark. On the first lesson my (ex) wife took with me, she came in late. I gave her the appropriate amount of push-ups, she refused -- and that was the end of her martial arts career. Not long after that, it was the end of my marriage. That's when I found out that love is grand, and divorce is a hundred grand (or more). Rudy ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 01:48:55 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Competition Bruce writes: > There was some talk of Kuk Sool Won wanting to expand into tournament play> Kuk Sool has a yearly "closed" tournament in Houston, called the World Kuk Sool Championships, and the rules are similar to those of the open tournament circuits. However, many WKSA affiliated schools have smaller versions of competition. There was a big push on a few years ago to close all these tournaments to WKSA members only. The only Kuk Sool school that competed with a different set of rules was the West Point school. It was an open tournament where, grappling etc. was allowed. I suspect that the only reason this tournament was allowed these rules was the fact that it was covered by West Point insurance. I believe there has been a change of Instructors at West Point, and I am not sure if this tournament is still run the same way, if it runs at all. In the earlier days of my training in Kuk Sool Won Hap Ki Do, my Instructor held mini tournaments where we used all the techniques of our art. A full point was awarded for any technique that could have caused a real fight to end, and a half point was awarded for a point with a slightly lesser effective technique that "might" have done significant damage to the opponent. The competitor who reached a full point first won. Blood was the norm, and soon the competitions were stopped for fear of law suits etc. For the past thirty one years, I have hosted the Can-Am Classics. This tournament uses open tournament rules (that are the norm in this area). The only exception is that we allow groin techniques, and we award only single points for any technique. Since we host our tournament at a local school gymnasium, we must abide by their rules and furnish proof of Insurance. The emphasis of the tourney is to teach students the various things that are difficult to duplicate in the Dojang, to give them an opportunity to see other martial art styles, to try techniques against a variety of different martial artists, and that sportsmanship is paramount. The Can-Am is one of the friendliest tournaments around, and it is ALWAYS followed by a great after tourney party where new friends are made and old friendships renewed. In thirty one years of hosting this event, we have had only one incident that required a hospital visit. The Janitorial staff loves to see us come, because I insist that we leave the place spotless. I am a firm believer of "wax on - wax off", and I use every opportunity to teach this important lesson to my students. Sincerely, Rudy National Korean Martial Arts Association ------------------------------ From: RumNCoke220@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 03:51:26 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: HKD Tournaments Bruce Sims: "There was some talk of Kuk Sool Won wanting to expand into tournament play with a kind of Tomiki Aikido approach but I have no detail on this and perhaps it would be best to ask around." I can't vouch for Aikido or Hapkido tournaments, but Kuk Sool Won tournaments (under the World Kuk Sool Association's rules, GM Suh, In Huyk's assoc.) have several events. Forms, weapons, sparring, breaking, but for me the interesting event is techniques. With a partner attacking, you choose three techniques (each belt rank has a certain range of techniques to choose from) to demonstrate in front of the judges and they score you based on a certain criteria. There is also a self defense event. The techniques event is a more traditional, high-falling, demonstration style event, while self-defense is still a scored demonstration event, but with a more straight-forward street application of the techniques. Instead of the attacker flying through the air doing a hae jun nak bup, he/she would be taken straight to the ground. I haven't competed in about two years, but I hear the WKSA tournaments have dropped sparring and added too geum sool (knife throwing) and archery to their tournaments. JT ------------------------------ From: "Karel van der Walt" Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:25:21 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Falling in Love I am glad for you, Mr Whalen I refer you to the Cat Stevens song First Cut is the deepest. The part about loving again. Then one can understand that all the material things are just opportinity costs to buy being together. There can be no regrets with honorable conduct and pure motives. C k ------------------------------ From: foxdragon@cuttingedge.net Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 05:34:09 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #46 > > > From: "Craig Stovall" > Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 11:59:45 -0600 > Subject: the_dojang: Just for the record...I WAS JOKING!!! > > "Andy Kaufman's bit with the women wrestling was merely a put on. It was a > huge joke played on people to obtain a response. This was similar to when > Andy Kaufman slapped Jerry Lawler, the Wrestler, on David Letterman Show. > Then cursed. It was all a gag. > > Seems like he pulled your chain on this one too. Andy is laughing in his > grave." > > Ummmmmmm...I was just being outrageous. I realize that it was all a big > practical joke. Did anybody actually think for one second that I was using > Andy Kaufman's ridiculous road show as a real example of male superiority? > Good grief. > > I thought I had made it abundantly clear at both the beginning, and ending > of the post that I was just being irreverant. > > For those who thought I was being serious...I'm not THAT big of an idiot. > _________________________________________________________________ "chuckle." Craig, if you think I believed that you would compare Andy as proof that a man is stronger.... I did not believe it for one bit and I just went along with it. But, Andy did give some break to the monotony around here anyway. I just wanted to prove to "bo bo aka James the butler" that I can have a dry sense of humor once in a while. By the way Ken, the tar and feathers is waiting for your arrival home. Donna ------------------------------ From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:07:47 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Love in the Dojang Hal writes: What happens when an instructor or Master falls in love with a student? I am sure this happens both share a common interest and relationships and friendships are made in the DoJang. I see it all the time (friendships). This has happened to me I have fallen in love with a student. Whom wanted to quit my class so it would not interfere with our relationship, Yet I would not let her quit and she is Happy I did not. My response: You'll get a ton of mail on this, but here's my take. Yes, it is perfectly alright to fall in love with a student, but I agree with her, she ought to be taught by someone else. Here's why: 1. She may take criticism from you too personally. 2. You may have higher expectations from her because she's working with you. 3. No matter how many times you say it, your students will suspect there is preferential treatment going on. 4. It sets a bad example for your assistant instructors, who may decide dating students is a good idea. Since MANY martial artists have mentioned female students who date instructors because it is a power trip, I predict you will soon have very few female students (and that's over half the population!). 5. Lastly, and most importantly for her, she needs to earn her rank ON HER OWN. She needs to do this for her own self-confidence. There's nothing wrong with you showing her stuff on the side, but you should not be her main instructor and you should have no input on her promotions. All this comes from 20 years in the arts and 10 years in a beautiful marriage with a martial arts woman who COULD have been my student if I let her. I truly believed it worked out a lot better because I didn't. Your mileage may vary. Sincerely, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 08:26:14 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Yu sool, hapkido and stuff-like-that-there Dear JT: "... I hear a lot on this list about yu sool, yu kwon sool, and ship pal ki. Do these styles even exist on their own anymore or are they completely absorbed into Hapkido, Kuk Sool Won, Hwarangdo, etc.? If they are practiced on their own, are they practiced outside of Korea? What types of methods/techniques do they use?..." We recently had quite an exchange about the use of the term "hapkido" here, and I am going to guess that your question begins to fall into that area. By this I mean that the terms you mention in your post have been and still are used. What may have shifted is the context and intent in which they are used. I remember a quote from GM Choi in which he characterized what he taught as "yu sool", a sort of transliteration of the term "ju-jitsu" and apparently even went so far as to use the Japanese term "yawara" to further explain himself. I think it would help if these terms were identified as activities (like the word "wresting is an activitiy) and then characterized in the way that they meet their goals. In this way "yu kwon sul", "hapki yu kwon sul", 'hapki yu sool", hapkido, Hwarangdo, Kuk sool won would be specializations of "yu sool". In the earlier discussion I take this a step farther and characterize any Korean arts which espouse a derivation from Daito-ryu-aiki-jujitsu as "hapkido arts". It's a practice that has already found general acceptance in the community and I think that use of the suffix "do" (C. Tao) better characterizes what most people are trying to do with the art in our modern context. If I can close on your other two questions I still run across individuals who use the terms you mention to identify the arts they practice, even outside of Korea. I should also share that these are few and far between and have none of the widespread acceptance that the better known Hapkido approach seems to enjoy. There are a couple of individuals on this Net who have a better appreciation of these arts and perhaps wthey would be willing to share what they see as some of the more significant similarities and differences. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 7:08:47 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #47 ******************************* It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.