From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #60 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 26 Jan 2001 Vol 08 : Num 060 In this issue: the_dojang: USNTF Championships the_dojang: Re:Distance To Class Too Far? the_dojang: Why kicking techniques? the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #59 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #59 the_dojang: Making a difference the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #56 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #59 the_dojang: Ken's Travel Log, Vol II, No. 3 the_dojang: Far the_dojang: the_dojang: Re: Distance To Class Too Far? the_dojang: Re: Tuck and Roll the_dojang: Re: Nikyo with a Jab the_dojang: Re: Attitude the_dojang: Re: Distance to Class Too Far? the_dojang: Re: biting video the_dojang: Korea Trip the_dojang: RE: BLACK BELT Letter the_dojang: Re: Origin of Hwarangdo; Fact or Fiction the_dojang: Re: History of Korean Martial Arts (sticking my neck out) the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 17:34:34 PST Subject: the_dojang: USNTF Championships received in the mail... 9th Annual USNTF Championships Junior, Adult, & Senior Games July 27-29 University of Missouri in St. Louis Mark Twain Gymnasium 8001 Natural Bridge Road St. Louis, MO 63121 For info contact: USNTF Regional Director Master William T. Jeffries Ki Do Kwan 8137 Morganford Road St. Loius, MO 63123 314-638-0779 FAX = 314-638-4728 master_jeffries@msn.com ------------------------------ From: Gary Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:02:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: the_dojang: Re:Distance To Class Too Far? > Hi all, > > I have found a Kuk Sool Won school, which is about 20 miles away (30 min > drive from my house) and was wondering how far people on this list have to > travel to their respective schools? > > Does anyone think a 30 min drive is too far? > > Cheers. > > Rich. Well, the simple answer is, it depends. I started out in KSW in a club that was ten minutes away. After moving, the closest KSW to me is 1 hour and 45 minutes away. I go once a week. If I had to make that drive as a beginning student, I wouldn't have lasted very long. Thirty minutes isn't that painful (IMO), but it can be irritating. Whether it is to long is going to depend on what you think of the school. If the instructor is good, you like the style, and the students are fun to be with, no problem, the drive won't seem to bad. If one of these is missing though, a long drive may quickly seem like the perfect excuse not to go. GK p.s. I've found that going over techniques in my head is a nice way to pass the time on the drives. ------------------------------ From: Andrew Pratt Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:19:39 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: Why kicking techniques? Bruce Simms wrote: >> the history thing. I was also wondering if anyone has ever done any nosing around to see if the use of kicking techniques is much more prevalent among pastoral/herding cultures. The reason I mention it is that I remember years ago a guest commented to me about the amount of development that occurs in the hips and legs when using horses to herd as well as the long trekking that herdsmen do afoot. The legs become particularly important and ways are found to incorporate all that strength in combat techniques. It made sense for a while but I would have to see it turning up with quite a bit of frequency around the world before I would give it credence. << I think I was told by a former member of the digest that northern Chinese martial arts contain many high kicks while southern Chinese martial arts don't. The speculation was that the former were connected to mountainous terrain and horse-based culture while the southern arts apparently grew out of sailors fighting. Andrew ------------------------------ From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 21:40:47 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #59 In a message dated 1/25/01 5:59:28 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Hi all, I have found a Kuk Sool Won school, which is about 20 miles away (30 min drive from my house) and was wondering how far people on this list have to travel to their respective schools? Does anyone think a 30 min drive is too far? Cheers. Rich. >> If the school is what you want then 30 minutes is nothing. Back in the 1970's, living in a small rural Kansas town, a friend of mine for 60 miles one way, 3 times a week in order to study taekwondo. 25 years later he's a professional martial arts instructor and 7th dan black belt. Go for it! gary pieratt New CKC Web Page ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 22:01:42 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #59 Dear Jose et al: I had a very difficult time following your post, and I donĄŻt know from bitter old men. As I begin this post I am feeling a little frustrated. I hear that people are interested in facts and want to trace or clarify histories but the fact is that we keep coming back to the same old cults of personality and picking nits about terminology. What I am seeing are essentially two camps. One camp is pulling for the genesis of Korean martial tradition with the Japanese Occupation and the end of the Yi Dynasty. The impression I get is that these people firmly believe that without Japanese tradition there would be no Korean martial tradition because it probably died out generations ago. The other camp says that there is a Korean tradition but the Japanese occupation pretty much obliterated either it, or any record of it. Have I got this pretty clear? Now, I donĄŻt mind a little healthy discussion but how about we use somebody elsesĄŻ rules for once!! I get the feeling that everything is being ordered according to a martial tradition as defined by everyone but the Koreans themselves. I canĄŻt find any place in Korean tradition so far where the Koreans defined a martial tradition according to strict patrilinear succession, grandmasters, belt ranks, certificates and licenses or organizations. As near as I can tell so far ALL of this crap was imported from someplace else and imposed by outsiders like the Japanese as THE way to do things. As far as I can tell the Koreans didnĄŻt need the Japanese to teach them how to use a sword or spear and certainly did need help regarding hand-to-hand combat. But each time we have a discussion like this the measuring stick we use is all the trappings of what we outsiders come to call martial tradition. In the event that we donĄŻt find these things indigenous to Korean culture, we then conclude that martial tradition does not exist there. When those things turn up by courtesy of another culture then we conclude that martial tradition came from someplace else. How about some examples. What is Kumdo? There are a lot of people who are sure that without the imposition of Kendo in 1896 there would be no Kumdo. So, what do we have here? The Koreans didnĄŻt know how to use a sword until 1896? The Koreans have been using swords for 2 millenia, but we outsiders donĄŻt see a neat progression like the Tesshin Katori Shinto Ryu in Japan and we figure that swordsmanship died out and it was gone for good except for courtesy of the Japanese. What about yu sool or hapkido or hwarangdo or whatever you want to call it. So if GM Choi and GM Jang had not come back to Korea and brought Daito-ryu with them-- what? The Koreans wouldnĄŻt know how to fight with their hands? Dr Jwing-ming Yang writes repeatedly in his books that every form of Chuan Fa has an aspect of joint-locks and throws (chin na) and how many different styles of Chaun fa do you think made it across the borders into Korea in 1600 years? But everyone is looking for a lineage of GM-s and identified institutions alĄŻa Shaolin Temple, and all the rest of the parameters and labels that make for a conveniently marketed and understood product. Absent these recognized standards (courtesy of everyone but the Koreans themselves) the conclusion is that the Korean donĄŻt have a martial tradition--- it died out. Gee, thats going to be tough news for the genrations of Koreans that practiced soo bahk, soo sool, ship pal ki, Kum sool and the dozens of other martial traditions -- armed and un-armed. How about spears and staffs--- how about horses, order of battle. Apparently the Koreans are not as gifted as their neighbors in such things. Wicked nice of the Chinese and Japanese to educate their intellectually challenged neighbor. Did the Koreans originate everything for themselves? No. But then neither did any other culture in the world. Everybody borrowed from everybody and each put his own spin on skills and technology-- the Koreans no more or less than anybody. But if you think what I am saying is just wind, take a look around the world. Where are the martial traditions of the Massai and Zulu in Africa and the Afghans in Asia? I guess they have no martial traditions because I canĄŻt find any grandmasters or organizations of martial art schools. Probably a safe bet that they have no idea how to fight, yes? Maybe we should ask the Japanese to occupy their countries so that they might know what a martial tradition is. Personally I think the energy that drives a discussion like this one about GM Lee is an overwhelming frustration that the Korean martial tradition is not wrapped up in a neat package and served to the world with a smile. I am waiting for someone to brighten-up and realize that invoking the Hwa Rang warriors of old was much less an appeal to a timeless value system than a clever marketing system based on a romantic appeal to the hidden warrior in each of us. I personally would have much rather GM Lee had invoked the HwaRang and owned that he was instituting an art predicated on their values than bust his butt to allude to some direct lineage back to the Three Kingdoms period. That probably would have worked back in the 60-s and 70-s but the MA of today are not the same starry-eyed kids of back then. In this day and age its not as easy to sell the public on the idea of an 11 y/o learning over 4,000 techniques from an reclusive monk. while his country recovers from one war and is pitched into another one. OK, IĄŻm done raving now and, yes, I do feel better. I now return you to our regularly scheduled chaos. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Mac" Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 22:28:22 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Making a difference Take this Quiz 1. Name the five wealthiest people in the world. 2. Name the last five Heisman trophy winners. 3. Name the last five winners of the Miss America contest. 4. Name ten people who have won a Nobel or Pulitzer prize. 5. Name the last half dozen Academy Award winners for best actor and actress. 6. Name the last decade's worth of World Series winners. How did you do? The point is, none of us remember the headliners of yesterday. These are no second-rate achievers. They are the best in their fields. But the applause dies. Awards tarnish. Achievements are forgotten. Accolades and certificates are buried with their owners. Here's another quiz. See how you do on this one: 1. List a few teachers who aided your journey through school. 2. Name three friends who have helped you through a difficult time. 3. Name five people who have taught you something worthwhile. 4. Think of a few people who have made you feel appreciated and special. 5. Think of five people you enjoy spending time with. 6. Name half a dozen heroes whose stories have inspired you. Easier? The lesson? The people who make a difference in your life are not the ones with impressive credentials, great wealth, or the awards of achievement. They are the ones that care. As an instructor, I hope I'm one of those that my students remember that have made a difference in their lives. I challange yall to do the same. Yours in the arts, Mac ------------------------------ From: Neal Konecky Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 21:14:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #56 Well Illona, You confirmed something I have believed all along. I am a very lucky man. My wife is a personal trainer and former competitive athlete, so maybe that helps. But on those occasions that I forget my gym bag, my wife is kind enough to leave it at the dojang on the way to work. If I do not take class for a while, she throws me out of the house with instructions to take class. She is not only suppoertive but understands that this is not something we do, it is something that we are. Neal Konecky << Despite the misgivings I have about Dojang romance, I believe that this is the only place where I could find a companion. Past experience tells me that no one but a true martial artist would put up with my love affair with martial arts. >> Same here ... they just wouldn't ever understand the depth of that love, would they ? Illona __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: DrgnSlyr5@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 01:10:43 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #59 In a message dated 1/25/2001 4:01:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << was wondering how far people on this list have to travel to their respective schools? >> 5 minutes - life's tough. ;-) DS ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 22:25:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Ken's Travel Log, Vol II, No. 3 Date: 26 Jan 01 Time: 2:11 pm Greetings from the Cyber Cafe, SM Mall, Cebu City, PI. My apologies on the price of a San Miquel beer in a previous post. I quoted a price of 40 pesos. But it is actually 14 pesos. The pesos to U.S. Dollar is hovering around 48.5. So, divide that by 14 pesos and you can quickly tell that I have invested in more than one bottle of San Miquel. For you calorie counters there is also San Miquel light. For you heavy hitters there is Red Horse which has substantially more alcoholic content. It is called the poor man's beer since you only need one or two for a nice buzz. Picked up a few unusual artifacts from vendors at the mall. Took a few business cards for distribution possibilities. They had a nice pocket holster in leather made for a .45 caliber handgun. But, I only have a .380, .22, 38 special, 357 magnum, and shotgun. Sorry to offend the non-gun types. I only use guns when camping. I am concerned more with two legged predators than bears. Purchased straw beach mats, a nice bamboo wind chime and picture holder, and a blouse made out of banana fabric. As we were walking through the mall we ventured upon a new subdivision being constructed about 30 minutes from Cebu. It is a gated community with beach front property. Will check it out on Saturday. Martial Arts you ask ? There is a large Chinese population in Cebu. Hence, there was a Kung-Fu and Tai Chi presentation provided by a group at the mall. There is also Balintawak Arnis/Eskrima, and Lapundi Arnis/Eskrima. A former Arnis/Eskrima champion is visiting the house tomorrow to provide me with a few private lessons. Then I will visit with GM Canete, DOCE Pares. Having a picture made of me by the number one charcoal artist in Cebu. I am wearing a Kuk Sool Won uniform--taken 5 years ago. About 7 years ago had a picture of me and my two sons with a Grand Master by the same artist. Upon framing it I was told it would cost over $1,000 to have that made in the U.S. I think I paid $75.00 in the PI. For you Hapkidoists, there appears to be no Hapkido school in Cebu. You could be within 3 hours from Korea for upgrade training. Then have your own house and maid for an unbelieveable price. Called back home today. Apparently it is cold in Maryland and snowing. Guess I made the right choice to visit this time of the year. Back to San Miquel. I like the way the bottle fits in my hand. Not too large, just right. Helps exercise my elbow joints and wrist area. So recommended you try this training method. Cheers, Ken McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 03:06:38 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Far Rich writes: > Hi all, > > I have found a Kuk Sool Won school, which is about 20 miles away (30 min > drive from my house) and was wondering how far people on this list have to > travel to their respective schools? Does anyone think a 30 min drive is too far? Cheers. Rich. Rich, for many years I drove eight hours on a weekly basis (weekends) to study with a Master. Thirty minutes to a good Instructor is worth every bit of time you spend. It sure beats training with a poor Instructor who lives next door. Whether this school you found is worth your efforts is something only you can decide. I hope you took the time to watch the Instructor. No matter what style you choose, it is always the Instructor who will actually teach you that makes the difference. I always suggest potential customers to check out every other school in town (including ours). A customer can only make a sound decision after comparing all of them, and then sometimes you choose wrong. This brings us back to the drive. If you are indeed lucky enough to find a good Instructor, go the distance. Good luck with the search. Sincerely, Rudy National Korean Martial Arts Association ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 03:55:40 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Recent posts: > It seems this animosity lies on the side of >> SGM. Lee. This may be a cultural thing, of losing >> face. So I would have to disagree in saying that the >> letter was from a ranting of an old man. Leaving an Instructor (for whatever reason) should not automatically result in heaping scorn on the departing student. After all, every single one of the GMs involved in these posts has done so on more than one occasion (according to their own bios). I know GM De Alba to be a very humble person, and I believe he had a good reason for going his own way. Perhaps Bob Duggan had an equally good reason to take leave. The skills of these two men speak wonders about their dedication AND the instruction they received. Why students (who often do not know the reasons behind such departures) feel there is a need to jump to the aid of the GMs in question is beyond me, their actions (even if well intended) appear to fan the flames of malcontent to the point of creating a much worse scenario. In a similar situation, I have had my share of stupidity (even death threats) from former students as well as former team mates. I highly doubt if this was done at the request of the GM. As with GM DeAlba, I never fail to appreciate the things I learned from ANY former Instructor; however, that does not mean I must blindly accept the policies they create. I love the art, not the politics. There may come a time where I too will need to air intimate things to clear my name. Should defamation ever impact my ability to make a living, I won't hesitate a moment to do so. To date, I have made no attempt to "air dirty laundry", and I have no intentions to do so. However, I reserve the right to defend my integrity if some misguided former student/peer should create a need for me to do so. These cases are bad for the art, and no one wins! Sincerely, Rudy National Korean Martial Arts Association ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 06:36:15 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Distance To Class Too Far? In a message dated 1/25/2001 3:56:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I have found a Kuk Sool Won school, which is about 20 miles away (30 min drive from my house) and was wondering how far people on this list have to travel to their respective schools? >> I drive twice a month to a school that is 90 min. away to train with someone not of my style to learn more. And I am thinking of studying with someone else that is about 45 min. to 1 hour away for some other training I would like to have. Will be meeting with him this Wednesday to set up some times and what all he would like to work with me on. Will be interesting ... he is 6'9" tall (I haven't met him yet, this is what he told me) and I am only 5' tall ... should be interesting ! LOL I am interested in learning more weapons and some knife defense. But you can't learn it all at once ... one step at a time :-) We will see what is available for me to study at the times he has available. Illona ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 06:49:57 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Tuck and Roll In a message dated 1/25/2001 3:56:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << > A third problem is that Aikidoka often seem to throw the opponent very far, as opposed to throwing him or her close and remaining in control. >> You have to consider the fact that if the uke did not jump and roll like that ... then a shoulder, or an arm or a wrist would be broken or pulled out. They would be on the ground screaming in pain ... ever have a shoulder dislocated ? It ain't fun. And it hurts like (heck). And if they aren't trained to fall and roll like that ... an ordinary person on the street will hurt himself landing there. Illona ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 06:45:56 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Nikyo with a Jab In a message dated 1/25/2001 3:56:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << So GM Tissier replied: "Then you should know that you can`t catch a jab with nikyo!" (Aikido lock). >> Well, I don't think they work the nikyo with a jab ... I think you have to come at them more forceably to do a nikyo technique. A jab would be a different kind of technique ... something that would go back into them as the jab is going back in that direction and they would want to follow the easiest route to lock you up. I might not be right ... but this is just my opinion. Illona ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 06:55:05 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Attitude In a message dated 1/25/2001 3:56:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << The attitude in my classes is rather informal, but my students know that the worst thing that can happen to them is to make me upset during a class ;) >> Speaking of this ... I have recently had to up the discipline in the classroom due to the problem of being too informal here. So many fine lines. :::sigh::: Alot of cocky kids now. They don't think they are ... their parents don't think they are ... but myself and the instructors are really not wild about the attitude that is standing out there looking at us as we try to teach them. Who's fault? Mine. So now I am trying to get it back to where I believe it should be and keep it there consistently. Illona ------------------------------ From: "Paul Rogers" Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 06:42:13 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Distance to Class Too Far? > From: "Rich" > Hi all, > > I have found a Kuk Sool Won school, which is about 20 miles away (30 min > drive from my house) and was wondering how far people on this list have to > travel to their respective schools? > > Does anyone think a 30 min drive is too far? I read somewhere that the top reason for choosing a school was that it was close to where one lived. I'm about 15 minutes from my dojang. On the other hand, I studied tai chi with a teacher who was about 50 minutes away. It was tedious, but worth it. Then he decided to move about 1+ hours away, which became a little too far (when combined with other reasons). So, as usual, "it depends..." :). Paul Rogers - ATA - Round Rock, TX ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 08:22:59 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: biting video In a message dated 1/25/01 1:21:27 PM Mountain Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I was glancing through a martial arts mag at the local bookstore, and noticed an ad for a Filipino art that involved biting, pinching, and some other (seemingly) schoolyard technique that evades me right now. It proclaimed to be an almost lost art passed to Don Insanato (I hope I spelled that correctly) and the video you could purchase was "approved" by Mr. Insanato (once again, I hope I did not butcher the spelling). Is this for real? Sounds like it might be a codified version of Mr. Buresse's "going Fluffy". I really get a kick out of the ads in these magazines. There are more ultimate, unbeatable, realistic, combat, street effective, lost, found, etc etc etc ad infinitum, ad naseum martial arts than you can shake a nunchuck at. Must be many millions spent each year on these videos, books and etc. >> Dave, I'd have to check the magazine, but it sounds like the new video of Paul Vunak from TRS. I know Paul has a new one out with them about biting, etc. He also has ties to Dan Inosanto. TRS ads are also the very long ones. I've seen one tape of Paul's and have read some articles by him. He is a talented martial artist and the one tape I saw was pretty good. He speaks well, informative, etc. I'm guessing that's the ad. TRS ads are long and a bit overblown, but they do put out some good tapes, good production quality, and some good instructors. Some better than others. Back in Montana and playing catch up and getting ready to start the last semester of law school..... Can't wait till it's over. Alain http://members.aol.com/aburrese/ ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 08:53:04 EST Subject: the_dojang: Korea Trip Hello everyone! I'm back from Korea, and gearing up for my last semester of law school here in Montana. The trip to Korea was fantastic. Saw more of Yi Saeng's family than the Hapkido dojang, but that was the priority of this trip. Can't all be like my 1998 visit when I stayed with my Hapkido instructor and went to four classes a day. Places we visited were Seoul, Inchon, Kangnung, Kyongju, and Taejon. While in Kangnung, I went to a couple HKD classes a day. My instructor, Lee Jun-Kyu opened a new school in Kangnung, so I was training in a different place. He has also changed the curriculum he teaches. So I was learning some new things. The changes are for the better. We practice kicks in a series, and he has new series for each belt level now. They are more balanced and you do each kick with each leg. The older series were not equal. He also places more emphasis on doing hoshinsul and other techniques with the left hand. Before, there was not as much emphasis at the lower belts on the left side. I like the changes. Besides the HKD, we visited all of Yi Saeng's sisters and her brother. Visited a couple temples, some other nice spots, and ate a lot of great food. Lots and lots of great food! It was really nice to be back, and we can't wait till the next trip. Now it's time to work, finish school, and work on this new book and video project so I can pay for the next trip. All the best, Alain Burrese ------------------------------ From: Carsten Jorgensen Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 09:03:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: RE: BLACK BELT Letter Bruce: >> I would be glad to, but I should tell you that the letter that was printed in BLACK BELT magazine was edited quite a bit from what I sent in. << Yes, journalists always does that :-) >> Perhaps with Rays' permission I will see if I can locate the disk with the original letter and post that instead. I suppose, ideally I could post both so that people can appreciate the difference. Does this make sense? << Also fine with me. Carsten Jorgensen hwarangdo@email.com Copenhagen, Denmark - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ------------------------------ From: Carsten Jorgensen Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 09:06:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Origin of Hwarangdo; Fact or Fiction 'JT': >> I am compelled to chime in on this subject for a couple of reasons. One is my first "exposure" to TKD history which talked about how long the lineage was and how it stemmed back to the infamous Hwarang warriors of Silla. << If you're interested in the Silla Hwarang history I recommend my own pages at www.hwarangdo.com/hwarang.htm. You'll find more stories there than anywhere else, including in Korean >> I just got through downloading a whole bunch of pages of Korean history. A project I have in mind is to study the areas of Korean history and compare it to the hwarangdo history. This is for my own curiosity more than anything else. << It sounds interesting, the sources above are in historical order so you might be able to use them. > He, like Duggan, is a "renegade" of the Hwarangdo Asso. A Duggan term >> This may be a cultural thing, of losing face. So I would have to disagree in saying that the letter was from a ranting of an old man. << How do you see that? >> I am not sure if Mst. Jorgensen has ever had the opprotunity to train or talk with either Mst. De Alba or Mst. Duggan. If you haven't, then can you honestly pass judgement on hear-say? << Duggan has not been involved with Hwarang Do for more than 20 years (the main reason why there are so many mistakes in his page) so I have never trained with him. But I have trained with, and meet DeAlba many times, he tested for 2nd dan when I tested for 1st. I have nothing against him, I just don't want people to think that his videos are Hwarang Do. It's great if he want to mix Hwarang Do with Escrima and Tai Chi and whatever, and it's fine with me that he changes all basic techniques in Hwarang Do. Everybody are free to choose if they think GM Lee or DeAlba is the better martial artist. Who knows, maybe DeAlba can develop his stuff into the greatest style in the world. That would be great for him and his students, but of course it's not Hwarang Do. >> The last reason for the chime is to bring up the usual question; Does the history make the art effective? << No, but personally I think it's important to know the history of your style. >> I have seen Mst. De Alba. He is an excellent martial artist. He was a student of SGM. Lee, so this tells me, regardless if Hwarangdo was developed by aliens, that art of Hwarangdo is quite effective. << Sure, GM Lee is a great teacher. Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark hwarangdo@email.com - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ------------------------------ From: Carsten Jorgensen Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 09:15:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: History of Korean Martial Arts (sticking my neck out) Why is posting about history "sticking your neck out"? I'm very happy to get this out in the open, I have offered at least five times to talk about the mistakes on his homepage but so far nobody have taken up on the offer. 'Jose': >> Dear Mr. Jorgensen Your comments about the author of the website that I referred to stir my curiosity. I would be interested to hear your more detailed comments or review of his positions as stated on this website. << Carsten is fine :-) Personally I think a lot of it requires that you're training Hwarang Do to be remotely interesting. But do ask any question, choose any topic. I was actually thinking about posting something here last week just after my wife and I had a good laugh reading his latest dissertation. I'm being called, among a few other things "a proselyte from Denmark", "a naive True Believer", "not old enough to have been around when these defining events occurred", "a simple minded sycophant", "a liar", and of course "Carsten stands as a liar", "compounds his ignorance", and naturally "claims to have a degree in Korean Studies" which I actually do have :-) I just couldn't be bothered, maybe I should have, who knows. < Young points to the inconsistencies of tracing the history of Hwa Rang Do back 1800 years and the founding of this famous institution that are made in the trilogy, "The Ancient Martial Art of Hwa Rang Do". >> Inconsistencies? How old is the Silla Hwarang organization - it's impossible to tell, why? << there is no document that survived the centuries of conquest and destruction dating back to the sixth century. There is some documentation of military training manuals dating back to the sixteenth century, >> I actually wrote that in one of my comments to his earlier mistakes :-) The Hwarang text in Muyedobo T'ongji he's referring to is at : http://www.hwarangdo.com/hwarang2.htm#hwangchang What this text shows is simply that by 1789, when the text was compiled, the Hwarang were not thought of as 'Flowerboys' as some historians have thought,... But HOW old it the organisation? Samguk Sagi says: "The Wonhwa was first presented at court in the thirty-seventh year (576) of King Chinhung". But there are two stories of Hwarang before 576, they are: "Sadaham was fifteen years old when he became a Hwarang under King Chinhung, when he did his followers (Rangdo) numbered more than a thousand, and he was personally interested in all of them. At that time (AD 562) the King ordered Isabu to attack one of the northern kingdoms". (Samguk Yusa 4:39; 44:417-418.) And of course, the largest Hwarang inscription on the Ch'onchon-ri Rock which is located between Kyongju and Ulsan is dated AD 525 which is during the rein of King Pophung. These combined with quotes about much older youth groups pertaining to Korea from the ancient Chinese books Wei Ji and the Hou Han Shu have lead both me and many Korean scholars to speculate that the Hwarang organization is much older than the quote from Samguk Sagi would have you believe. Actually I think it was Prof.Richard Rutt who suggested that the Hwarang were simply added to that year because AD 576 was King Chinhung's last year. Here's another quote: Parker, E.H.: "On Race Struggles in Korea", (in: Transactions of the Asiatic Society of Japan Vol 23, 1890) p.137-228 and Nelson, Sarah Milledge: The Archaeology of Korea (great book btw): It is often thought that the Hwarang organization grew out of indenious youth groups which are belived to have existed long time before the Wónhwa was created. In the sections of the Chinese books Wei Ji and the Hou Han Shu pertaining to Korea, a custom which distantly echoes a feature of the American Indian Sundance is described: "The people were robust and brave, and the young men when exerting themselves to build a house, would take a rope and run it through the skin of the back, and trail a huge log by it, amid cheers for their sturdiness." How early these youth organizations existed cannot be answered, but hence the often used 'claim' that the Silla Hwarang organisation is "more that 2000 years old". The full texts are at http://www.hwarangdo.com/hwarang.htm >> I have heard the same argument made by other historians of Korean martial arts. Herb Perez wrote a similar argument, he wrote it in collaboration with a professor of history at a Korean University, in a scathing series on the history of Taekwondo claimed by most Korean Masters in Black Belt Magazine. << Steven Capener (Ehwa University) is great, I meet him in Korea several year ago. The text is at http://www.bstkd.com/capener.1.htm but it has nothing to do with Hwarang Do. I don't think Herb Perez is a historian, who else are you thinking about? >> I suspect, and I could be wrong but humans must base judgments on the information they have, and my judgments are open to revision, that nothing resembling Hwarangdo or with the joint locks of Hapkido existed in Korea before Choi Young Sool returned from Japan. Then a variety of Hapkido or Yawara or YooSool schools branched out from that. Lee, Joo Bang was primarily a Hapkido master. << Glad to hear you have an open mind. BTW, are you very new to this list? Anyway, let's take these one by one, first "Nothing resembling the joint locks of Hapkido existed in Korea before Choi Young Sool returned from Japan": Personally I would have written Hapkido as "Hapkido" but more about that later. It always amazes me that people can think there was absolutely NO martial art in Korea before GM Choi. There were martial art in Japan, China, Thailand, the Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Laos, India and pretty much everywhere else, but NOT in Korea? And then we have the monks who still train (different types of) martial arts in many Korean temples today. They also came after GM Choi? I have more examples if you like? Personally I think all this came up after people found out about the Japanese influence of Taekwondo. A lot of people were so disappointed that they've totally "gone overboard" (can you say that in English?) and believes all Korean martial art comes from Japan. "GM Lee was primarily a Hapkido master" which brings us right back to my old question, what do *you* think Hapkido is? Quick re-cap of Hwarang Do's history: GM Lee opened his first school in 1960 as one of the very first people to start a school in Seoul. (He came to Seoul already in 1955, but he was doing a double major at university, so he did not have time to open a school before.) The school was called 'Hwarang Do', and of course in 1960 there were NO style called Hapkido in Korea, the first was opened in 1961... does that in any way make Hwarang Do=Hapkido? Of course GM Lee, as all the other different Korean styles did, also used the name "Hapkido" for his style for about 7 or 8 years. From one of my "old posts" (2 weeks ago?): - --- >> The biggest problem that I have seen is when someone say's Kuk Sool Won, Hwa Rang Do, Han Mu Do, Kung Jung Moo Sool and a few other are all Hapkido. Naturally the Grandmasters and founder of these systems become upset. They are not now or were they ever be Hapkido. They or unique systems that after years of training became what they are today. << I agree, but some of them were actually known as Hapkido for about 7 or 8 years... The Kuk Sool Hwe (1962-66) was normally counted as one of the Hapkido organisations, so of course that means that GM Lee used the Hapkido name from ~1961 (his first school opened in 1960) until he dropped all ranks (including his 8th dan Hapkido) and all connections to the Hapkido people in 1968. Again, before everybody starts posting on the internet that Hwarang Do=Hapkido - Hapkido was a term used for all the different styles that was not Taekwondo... Try reading the articles with GM Lee again, but please read what he says, not what you think he says. They're also online at www.hwarangdo.com. - --- >> Im sure its [Hwarang Do] a great system, Id loved to study it (though I doubt I would be welcome in their dojangs while holding this opinion). << You're listening too much to Duggan's FUD. Why wouldn't you be welcome? Lot's of stuff about differences in techniques that's impossible to discuss in mail, but are easy to demonstrate in person Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark hwarangdo@email.com - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 7:34:38 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #60 ******************************* It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. 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