From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #62 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 26 Jan 2001 Vol 08 : Num 062 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: Distance to school the_dojang: Politics the_dojang: Re: BLACK BELT Letter Original the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #60 the_dojang: leadership the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #61 the_dojang: Re: The Long Drive the_dojang: Re: Team running school the_dojang: Re: Uniforms the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #59 the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Via, Suzanne" Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:30:25 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Distance to school I work about 40 minutes away from home ~ twice a week I race to get home by 6:00, pick up my three kids who take TKD with me (the fourth is only two & a half - I guess SHE's too young to start?), then we turn around and race back across the mountain from whence I came ~ not quite so far though - it takes us about 25 minutes from doorstep to doorstep. If I'm lucky and the kids are ready to walk out the door we can get there on time for two hours of class. We love it, though, so it's well worth the time and effort. Not only that, but we get our classes free so we consider ourselves among the luckiest of lucky. Suzanne ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:00:34 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Politics Carsten writes: > Now, since you're posting on a public mailing list that DeAlba and Duggan > are 'right' and GM Lee has done something wrong you must have a good reason > to do so. And of course you have talked with both parties? What do you > think DeAlba's "good reason for leaving" were? > BTW, the 'GM' title is in DeAlba's own style. In Hwarang Do GM is 8th dan Hello Carsten (I don't use a title because in our previous communications you asked me to use your first name -- no disrespect): BTW, I undertand the title is in GM DeAlba's own style. GM DeAlba most certainly never implied to me that it was anything but his own. I hope I did not infer that it was not, I would hate to make anyone think poorly of anyone because of an error I made. As stated in my post, I have communicated with both parties, but then again, I have also spoken with you (on another subject). Moreover, I sincerely hope to continue to speak amicably to all of you. The point of my post was to indicate that these issues sometimes get blown right out of proportion by parties "other" than those directly involved. I'd like to address an assumption you made. In any dispute it usually is a combination of many things that cause a split, and nowhere in my post do I state that ANYONE is right or wrong. I simply state that the parties involved had a good reason for leaving. IMHO, anytime you are at serious odds with your Instructor, it is a good time to leave. Staying on would cause too much strain on too many innocent parties. Too bad parting can't be done in a more amicable manner. Sincerely, Rudy National Korean Martial Arts Association ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:51:31 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: BLACK BELT Letter Original Dear Folks: For those to whom this may be of interest, I am pasting the text of the letter I sent to BLACK BELT Magazine regarding the 3-part series that was published in which GM Lee was interviewed. I must apologize in advance for the formatting. This copy was forwarded back to me from the BLACK BELT Ed staff as I was simply not able to find my original copy. I am expressing my most sincere thanks to Sara Fogan for taking time to provide this service for me. ".....> Dear Mr. Price, > I was deeply disappointed to observe that your magazine has used valuable time and material to once again cater to the martial arts mythology surrounding the development of Hapkido. I am referring specifically to the three-part interview currently running in Black Belt Magazine for the months of September, October, and November this year. I have written on previous occasions that your publication does not serve the best interests of the martial art community by regular reproduction of these anecdotal histories. Each and every one of the grandmasters of the Hapkido tradition have their own slant on the development of their art, and each history, interview and allegation is as self-serving as the next. A bad situation only continues to worsen as the next generations are taking up the banners of these ersatz traditions and the Hapkido art continues to suffer. > The history of Korea is probably one of the more turbulent in Asian development. There have been repeated rise and fall of various kingdoms and each has had its own patterns of development, evolution and revolution. The chances of a direct line of succession between the HwaRang warriors of the Shilla kingdom (C. 600 ad) and an obscure monk in the 1950s in what is now North Korea are incredibly remote. Still GM Lee makes the argument by citing Su-Ahm Dosa as the "57th generation heir to one particular lineage of Hwa Rang training handed down from the Silla period." Now, I am not even going to address a response by GM Lee to the question "so the system you inherited from Su-Ahm Dosa was not Hwa rang do?" His resonse was "that is right. I inherited the Hwarang combat system which was called um-yang kwon." Maybe its just me, but does this strike anyone else as an incredibly carefully worded attempt to invoke the romanticism of the HwaRang warriors without actually admitting no true connection? I live in Illinois, known as the "Land of Lincoln". There is "Lincoln Avenue," "Lincoln Cleaners", :Lincoln Savings and Loan" but I donıt pretend that any of these entities are related to the great president. Itıs name recognition, pure and simple. > The other issue I see is a definite disassociation by GM Lee from his training with GM Choi as well as an improbably time frame. Now apparently GM Lee was born in 1938 ("in 1942 I was 4 years oldŠ") and he opened his firstschool in Seoul in 1960 ("and in 1960 I was teaching under the Hwarang Mu Sool banner.") Getting back to Su-Ahm Dosa, GM reports that he started at the training with this teacher at the age of four and continued until theage of 8 ("I trained with him daily until our family relocated farther south in 1950." GM Choi opened his first school in 1953 (which fits with Dr.Kimmıs report that GM Choi was teaching out of his house in 1954). Even if GM Lee were to have started on the first day, he would have had no more than 7 years, from age 14 to age 21 to learn to corpus of the Daito-ryu system which GM Choi is reported to have mastered. (I wonder what the Daito-ryu Aiki-jujitsu people would say to knowing that their art could be mastered in 7 years.) This also supposes that in the time from age 4 to 14, GM Lee would have absorbed the entirety of Su-Ahm Dosaıs "260 categories with over 4,000 techniques, along with 1-8 traditional weapons broken down into 20 categories. In addition Su-Ahm Dosa taught us stealth training used by ancient Hwarang spies called Sul Sa. Once we had learned all these skills, we were recognized as masters." Well, I guess so! Sounds like a pretty full day for any 4 to 14 year old I know. > The martial arts individual of the 1990s is not the same person that bought your magazine in the 1960s and 70s. I have trained, and read and learned. I use the Internet to communicate. I donıt spend a lot of time being "wowed" by breaking, flashy uniforms or media personalities. Organizations which routinely incorporate the words "world" or "international" into their titles donıt impress me as they may have at one time. Nor can you expect that I will be responding to the successors to "Count Dante" who continue to fill your pages. > Perhaps your readership is sizable enough that you can afford to lose established members of the martial arts community in favor of a younger, more gullible group to follow. If this is the case, you are certainly doing a fine job of alienating at least one member of that community and trust that you have identified the individual who will take my place. > >Sincerely, >Bruce W Sims >www.midwesthapkdo.com......................"> ------------------------------ From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:25:38 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #60 Re: "I was also wondering...if the use of kicking techniques is much more prevalent among pastoral/herding cultures" Having just read an anthological study on several such tribes, I will add my 2 cents. (I am assuming you are referring to nomadic lifestyles, as herding cultures are.) The research did include forms of protection and rudimentary government structures that advocated violence. There were no "martial arts" described. One tribe did perform a ritualistic test of manhood in which a man would be repeatedly beaten in the chest...not a technique I regularly practice. You? Keep in mind however, if a tribe considered a fighting technique sacred, the anthropologist that infiltrated the tribe to do the study would probably not get to see it. - -Cheree ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:59:15 PST Subject: the_dojang: leadership > I'd like to address an assumption you made. In any dispute it usually is a > combination of many things that cause a split, and nowhere in my post do I > state that ANYONE is right or wrong. I simply state that the parties > involved had a good reason for leaving. IMHO, anytime you are at serious > odds with your Instructor, it is a good time to leave. Staying on would > cause too much strain on too many innocent parties. Too bad parting can't > be done in a more amicable manner. Perhaps this is a good lead-in to a question... That of being a leader vs. a follower. The instructors that many/most of us have had were leaders, they went out into the world and formed their own schools or organizations or even styles. Yet many of these same folks do not wish their students to also become leaders in their own right, they frequently wish them to remain as followers. as examples (IMHO), if JB Lee had not been a leader we would not have HRD. If Han-jae Ji had not been a leader we would not have Hapkido. If the original Kwan founders had not been leaders we would not have Taekwondo. So, back to my question... When does one recongnize within themself that it is time to branch off, lead on their own, and not just follow? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:33:05 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #61 In a message dated 1/26/01 1:14:54 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I would have to agree. When I started in TSD all we did was non-contact sparring. That, of course, does not mean there wasn't contact. But you did not extend the full power of your techniques into the opponent. It can develop bad habits. Folks can work full power on the bag and in drills, but it is not the same as using full contact in a sparring match, IMHO. Ray Terry >> When I first started in my training I started in a Shotokan class (1976). We did all non contact sparring. We had great control (for the most part) but I do believe that way of training produces many black belts that can't beat their way out of a wet paper bag. After about 8-9 months of that, I switched to a TKD school. Early into my training, as I was about to spar my instructor, I told him I had no cup on. So as soon as the match started, he kicked me hard in the groin, then said "never forget your cup". And I was hooked !!!!!!!!!! Stayed with the Korean arts ever since. and I've never forgotten to wear it since. gary pieratt New CKC Web Page ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 16:54:20 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The Long Drive In a message dated 1/26/2001 11:14:16 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << 5 minutes - life's tough. ;-) DS >> Takes me about one minute to walk, but it's my school so I know the long walk is worth it! :) >> I live in mine ... all I have to do is turn around. :-) Illona ------------------------------ From: Chuck Sears Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:00:07 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Team running school > In a message dated 1/22/01 8:46:54 AM Central Standard Time, > the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > > << Many marriages have worked out in the martial arts world ... look at all > the > schools with both the wife and husband running them ! > > How many do we have here on this list ? > > Illona I mentioned my VSO and how we handled our relationship in an earlier post. We also run the school together. ------------------------------ From: Chuck Sears Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:04:28 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Uniforms > > From: MissIllona@aol.com > Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 00:53:04 EST > Subject: the_dojang: Re: The V-Neck Uniform > > In a message dated 1/22/2001 4:28:59 PM Pacific Standard Time, > the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > > << Very odd for me to see as I never thought that would happen to taekwondo, > but I still find it odd to see the V-neck dobok outside of competition and it > took me a while to get used to that. This is just an observation. Jere R. > Hilland >> > > Mr. Hilland, > Could you elaborate on this alittle bit more ? I thought all TKD'ers wore > the v-neck ? > FWIW - the ATA wears the traditional crossover dobok. The v-neck is not even optional. ------------------------------ From: Chuck Sears Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:20:06 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #59 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From: "Rich" > Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 20:23:58 -0000 > Subject: the_dojang: Distance To Class Too Far? > > Hi all, > > I have found a Kuk Sool Won school, which is about 20 miles away (30 min > drive from my house) and was wondering how far people on this list have to > travel to their respective schools? > > Does anyone think a 30 min drive is too far? I started with the ATA on the island of Kwajalein in the Republic of the Marshall Islands. When my contract out there expired, I came back home to Angleton, Tx. The nearest ATA school was 51.3 miles from my driveway and I made class a minimum of 3 days a week. Of course, not everyone is as wierd as I am, either. And I have now moved back up to Houston and live 2 miles away from the school :-) ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:54:45 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #62 ******************************* It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.