From:      the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com
To:        the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com
Subject:   The_Dojang-Digest V8 #65
Reply-To:  the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com
Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com
Precedence: 


The_Dojang-Digest             Mon, 29 Jan 2001          Vol 08 : Num 065

In this issue:

       the_dojang: GM West's
       the_dojang: Master Hodder
       the_dojang: Re: Ken's Travel Log, Vol II. No. 6
       the_dojang: News 
       the_dojang: Re: BLACK BELT Letter Original
       the_dojang: Politics (final?)
       the_dojang: Cult Crap(TM)
       the_dojang: re: Korean Language Village at Concordia Language Villages
       Re: the_dojang: Re: BLACK BELT Letter Original
       the_dojang: RE: Leadership
       the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #62
       the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #62
       the_dojang: .
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From: "hununpa" <hununpa@netzero.net>
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 13:32:19 -0500
Subject: the_dojang: GM West's

<<On a different note, after many phone calls (insisting that I attend GM
West's  Feb. seminar in Jackson)  and a lot of help from priceline.com, I
get to go. Hooray!! See all of you there.
Rich>>

I had the pleasure of trainig with Master Hodder at GM West's August 2000
seminar.
I can honestly say I learned some new good things, and enjoyed it.  If you
know how to use priceline.com, and enjoy martial arts, I suggest you check
out Master Hodder and the host of other 25+ year veterans GM West assembles.
Seriously Master Hodder's sessions also give us kick-punch peolpe something
educational to do when we've had enough joint manipulations<g>

Yours in Jung Do,

Charles Richards
Moja Kwan TSD


Shop online without a credit card
http://www.rocketcash.com
RocketCash, a NetZero subsidiary

------------------------------

From: "hununpa" <hununpa@netzero.net>
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 13:11:09 -0500
Subject: the_dojang: Master Hodder

Dear Master Hodder,

Congratulations, you've been practicing TKD as long as I've been alive <g>.
Congratulations on your engagement!  Finding a partner committed to personal
fitness/development is a rare find and will go a long way towards
understanding the many "extra" hours away from family and at the dojang.  If
your partner is a 3rd Dan even better, as some training time can be family
time too.  I believe GM Rhee, Jhoon is still married to his first wife, and
TSD GM Shin, Jae Chul...I think Master Norris, Carlos S. remarried his first
wife...TSD Master Blackburn, Chuck (Oh Dan), and TSD Master Strong, William
(Yuk Dan) are married to their first wives.  Of course, you are very
perceptive 80% of the Master Instructors I've met are divorced or
re-married.  The key is finding a partner who understands and respects your
passions (martial arts in this case).

I have been married to my lovely wife for 3.5 years now.  She has just
earned her 9th Gup in TSD.  I'll keep you posted on how it goes <g>.

Looking forward to seeing you again at GM West's clinic in February? (Yes a
shameless plug for GM West's clinic  www.hapkido.com).


Shop online without a credit card
http://www.rocketcash.com
RocketCash, a NetZero subsidiary

------------------------------

From: Ken McDonough <maganda44@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 22:04:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: the_dojang: Re: Ken's Travel Log, Vol II. No. 6

Date: 29 Jan 01
Time:  1:56

Location:  S and M Mall, Cebu, PI.

Comments:  Yesterday the heat and humidity got to me. Felt a little
sluggish. Worked on the drills I was shown recently by the Arnis/Escrima
instructors.

This morning went jogging and did basic exercises. Stopped by a Sari-Sari
store and picked up a San Miguel for 14 pesos. I read the back of the 
San Miguel bottle, to wit:

<San Miguel Beer, a truly satisfying beer with a refined, well-balanced
flavor. Perfected and brewed for over a century. The only beer that
nourishes true Filipino friendships."  I will drink to that.

Passed a few shops selling "Manok and BaBoy".  At the shopping mall there
was a cart/foodstand that sold "Chickapops (freshly popped chickaron)." I
have to find out what is in the secret sauce ?

We looked at a few subdivisions and a condominium but don't think I would
buy unless I was heavily involved in an export business. Perhaps in the
next career lifecycle.

Looking for a knife shop. Also looking to purchase a Kerambit. Is this a
common Filipino weapon ?

My brother in law showed me a few knives. One was a sword carried by a
Muslim Filipino in Mindanaue (sic).  You could still see a few blood stains.

Just maxin and relaxin.

Peace,

Ken McD...

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. 
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

------------------------------

From: Andrew Pratt <AndrewPratt@ircltd.co.kr>
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 18:36:33 +0900
Subject: the_dojang: News 

Dear all,

Back in the 1950's I think someone commented that thanks to the
television everyone would have their five minutes of fame.

Well, it appears that my time has come.

Last weekend I was completely stitched up. I had an innocuous call
saying that a Korean TV station wanted to interview Korean wives of
foreigners. Foolishly I passed on my wife's phone number.

Oh-Kyung, my wife, then began to act especially strange, she super-duper
cleaned the house, couldn't sleep at night, worried more than usual
about my poor dress sense. She said an old university friend would visit
on Sunday.

On Sunday she was especially worried that I took the mobile and had it
turned on. She insisted that we went shopping after church and prolonged
the shopping experience even though I was ill and tired.

Thus the 'old friend' arrived. The face looked vaguely familiar.
Oh-Kyung wanted me to sit in one particular place. She behaved strangely
with this 'old friend.' Oh-Kyung tried to take Henrietta away even
though Henrietta wanted to be with Dad (Henrietta won).

Basically I failed to be observant and didn't spot the hidden cameras.
My poor ability at Korean meant that I missed most of the absurdity of
the conversation.

I was 'got' by a comedy duo called 'Kulnom' My wife and her sister were
in on it. Only I didn't know. There were three cameras recording my
every action. I was stunned to silence.

How embarrassing.

Will I ever be taken as a 'serious' consultant again?????

For those in Korea, my on-camera torture will be this Sunday at 4.50
KBS2 'Hanguk-i poinda'

Yours in shame,

Andrew Pratt

------------------------------

From: Carsten Jorgensen <hwarangdo@email.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 09:35:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: the_dojang: Re: BLACK BELT Letter Original

>> I was deeply disappointed to observe that your magazine has used valuable time and material to once again cater to the martial arts mythology surrounding the development of Hapkido. I am referring specifically to the three-part interview currently running in Black Belt Magazine for the months of September, October, and November this year. <<

Wow, that's pretty hard - did you write this before or after we started talking? Anyway, as always if you have the facts it's always obvious. 

>> The chances of a direct line of succession between the HwaRang warriors of the Shilla kingdom (C. 600 ad) and an obscure monk in the 1950s in what is now North Korea are incredibly remote. <<

Well, probably as remote as a direct lineage from a Chinese Shaolin temple to modern martial arts or several direct lines from the Japanese samurai to a Japanese Ryu today. But few people doubt that. Why is it more unlikely to have happened in Korea? Please don't give me Hwarang Do=Hapkido stuff again, I hope we've passed that.

<SNIP precise, but pointless calculations: "I trained with him daily until our family relocated farther south in 1950.">

Calculations like this makes no sense, the monk moved south with the family and both GM Lee and his brother GM Joo Sang Lee trained with Suam Dosa until his death in 1968. If you've read any of the history otherwhere you'll find that everywhere.
I'll write-up the whole Suam Dosa story for next time, it'll take me a bit though.

>>GM Choi opened his first school in 1953 <<

GM Lee and his brother was trained privately by GM Choi, they were not students of any school.

>> Even if GM Lee were to have started on the first day, he would have had no more than 7 years, from age 14 to age 21 to learn to corpus of the Daito-ryu system which GM Choi is reported to have mastered.<<

You can do some investigation in how old, and for how long, the other original Korean masters trained with GM Choi. You'll probably find it interesting if you think the above is interesting. To me it just another examples on how Suam Dosa always was a greater influence than GM Choi.

Anyway, Hwarang Do background history part one:
When GM Lee started using the Hwarang name in public for his first school (1960) there were NO OTHER martial arts using the Hwarang. None of the styles that were united as Taekwondo 5 years later, or any other style, were tracing their history back to using the Silla Hwarang.
The Hwarang name was not 'chosen by GM Lee because of Korean national pride' or to 'differentiate it from the Japanese martial arts' as I have seen people speculate. There were none of these tendencies in Korea in 1960, it came later (look it up).
If you read the Hwarang stories you'll find absolutely NO reference to unarmed combat whatsoever. 
It was GM Lee that started using the Hwarang Do name for unarmed martial art, Suam Dosa always said that GM Lee and his brother were learning 'Um-Yang Mu-Sool' (literally hard and soft martial arts techniques). BTW, this is also the reason why we have the um-yang symbol on the back of the Hwarang Dobog. And the reason why GM Lee used the Hwarang name was that Suam Dosa had said that what they were taught had been "handed down for 57 generations from the Silla Hwarang". That's it.

So are there any proof that Suam Dosa were teaching techniques that were handed down for 57 generations? No, what proof could there possible be? Suggestions are welcome.
Or am I being a brainwashed cult follower who can't see straight here?

Black Belt Magazine article:
>> "so the system you inherited from Su-Ahm Dosa was not Hwa rang do?" His [GM Lee] resonse was "that is right. I inherited the Hwarang combat system which was called um-yang kwon." Maybe its just me, but does this strike anyone else as an incredibly carefully worded attempt to invoke the romanticism of the HwaRang warriors without actually admitting no true connection? (…) It¹s name recognition, pure and simple. <<

There were no name recognition in the Hwarang name when GM Lee started using it.

Rudy:
>> Hello Carsten (I don't use a title because in our previous communications you asked me to use your first name -- no disrespect): <<
I didn't know we started to use titles here, if we do I'm a Sabum. All the ranks are on hwarangdo.com btw (full disclosure :-)


Carsten Jorgensen
Copenhagen, Denmark
hwarangdo@email.com

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------------------------------

From: Carsten Jorgensen <hwarangdo@email.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 09:41:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: the_dojang: Politics (final?)

Me:
"Duggan has not been involved with Hwarang Do for more
than 20 years (the main reason why there are so many
mistakes in his page) so I have never trained with
him."
JT:
>>So then you can not account for what really happen on
a person to person basis, just from what you have
heard from GM Lee or other members of the WHRDA. 
Personally I don't know Mst. Duggan or GM Lee so I can
not make a judgement either way. Only the mat can
tell you if someone knows what they are talking about.<<

You're making this into something personal, This is just a question about knowing Hwarang Do history or not.
But I did actually talk with Duggan in e-mail when he contacted me to join his latest organisation. After a couple of mails I said I didn't have any problems with World Hwa Rang Do Association, but didn't mind joining their discussions, after that I never heard from them again.

BUT, that does not matter because I'm not posting about Duggan as a person. I never have posted anything personal about him, and when I do it will not be here. 
This is why it does not matter if I've met him:

If Duggan says GM Lee did not create Hwarang Do until he arrived in America - and I have seen old videos, photos, stickers, articles, flyers, and talked with Korean masters in Korea who says otherwise, then I know he is wrong.

If Duggan contacts me and all other black belts in Hwarang Do and tells us that He wrote GM Lee's three books and caused GM Lee to do pretty much everything else that have happened in Hwarang Do (creating a syllabus, wearing a v-neck uniform etc, etc) - and I have seen GM Lee's original book from 1968 in Korea (I got a copy of it later), and I have seen the old films and photos where GM Lee is wearing a v-neck uniform, and I have seen the old original Korean syllabuses - then I know Duggan is full of it.

When I read Duggan say that "GM Lee is handing out rank and diluting the system" then he obviously have no idea of what's going on in Hwarang Do. And stuff like "I [Duggan] was taught the original syllabus through Second Degree [and was] further disheartened when I learned that the original syllabus was watered down so that techniques that were originally required in First Degree Black were thinned out into Second, Third, Fourth and Fifth Degree" can only make you laugh when you have seen his original manual which includes the black belt techniques he learned. I actually think his manual is still at Downey?

But what really destroyed credibility among the people who train Hwarang Do is when he writes stuff like this:

"They [people who train Hwarang Do] have an ultimate Authority and he is called Supreme Grand Master Doctor. Beyond that Pontifical reassurance they are unable to hear any other voice. "

Since Duggan know very well that there is no such title in Hwarang Do, then I know he's both spreading misinformation and lying. More about the Pontifical stuff in the next post.

To me all Duggans texts are highly personal ("I think", "I feel", my style is better etc) with little base in facts and most mistakes comes from him sitting up in Colorado for 20 years without contact to WHRDA.
But then, I'm "a simple minded sycophant and a proselyte" (I had to look these words up in a dictionary :-) who believes you can learn something from old articles and 8 mm tapes, and who thinks that GM Joo Bang Lee, GM Joo Sang Lee and the other Korean masters I have talked with knows more about Hwarang Do history that Bob Duggan does after training 20 some years ago.

A tired,
Carsten Jorgensen
Copenhagen, Denmark
hwarangdo@email.com

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------------------------------

From: Carsten Jorgensen <hwarangdo@email.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 09:47:08 -0500 (EST)
Subject: the_dojang: Cult Crap(TM)

This started about a year ago when Duggan came in contact with one of the people who simply use the Hwarang Do name without previous training (same problem again - no contact to Hwarang Do to verify these simple things) (Actually a fun story!). Duggan seized the opportunity to call Hwarang Do a cult. When I first saw the ramblings I got angry and contacted the "charter members"" of his organisation to hear if this was something other people believed in. None of them did.

The reason why I got angry was that a year ago there was not much information about Hwarang Do on the internet, so I was afraid people would simply believe his stories without checking. This is the same reason why I don't care anymore. There is just too much information out there and it's getting more and more easy for people to find out if what he's saying is true.

But to use his own words, the following 'goes to the heart of the matter' why I think Duggan is a fool. My head is spinning when I read this, and I now actually believe that Duggan believes what he's writing.
First quote:

"Here is the heart of the differences between those who hang around Joo Bang Lee, and those who have abandoned him. JOO BANG LEE BELIEVES THAT HE IS THE ART, PERIOD. The sycophants who surround him believe it as well. "
<SNIP personal grudge>

Hang around? Sycophants? But we get an explanation:

"Religious cults are sustained by such True Believers everywhere and for all time. My belief is that knowledge grows. It is never perfect. Joo Bang Lee had to believe this once or he would have never assembled the various techniques from many different sources in the beginning of his career as a young martial artists. However, he now wants disciples who will treat him as a God or at least a Demigod. He wants nothing that he teaches altered because it is a violation of his personal legacy. If this is not a cult, I don't know what is. "

This is of course complete and utter #)&¤. 
What can I say, four of my students were over to LA to test for their black belt a couple of months ago. They stayed in GM Lee's house three days, where swimming in the pool with him, went drinking and shooting together with him (on different days :-) etc. Doesn't sound much like stuff you do with a Demigod…

Not altering techniques? GM Lee is constantly changing both his own techniques and the syllabus. He changes his techniques according to the situation and the person he's standing infront. And so do I and the other Hwarang Do black belts I know.
I was posting about this a while back (we used the analogy about the alphabet) you have to learn the alphabet before you can write, but then it's up to you what you write. I can write a long post separate about this?

>> Read the WHRDA CONTRACT with a detached analytical point of view. It's purpose is to clothe feudal loyalty and obedience to a SUPREME GRAND MASTER in a legal contract that is binding for life. He wants to be treated like a feudal lord in a capitalist society. He wants to use its legal contracts to bind his disciples' obedience to him for their entire life, to oblige them to pay a tithing for life, to give a share of whatever business they create to him and his son. He wants to use the media and the Internet to generate the myth, the mystique and his legacy of greatness. But the fact of the matter is, he is just a man. Not ordinary for sure, but a man nonetheless.  <<

How much does my students pay World Hwa Rang Do Association? Students: $30 a year and black belts $100 - of course then black belts don't pay to train, and they can train and live for free when they go to Los Angeles (or Korea, or wherever). I pay the same $100 a year association fees. Ask any Hwarang Do black belt how much WHRDA 'forces them to pay'.

But yes, GM Lee is a man, and very much a Korean man, which may account for some of the differences in opinion between GM Lee and Bob Duggan. And I would guess it's probably also the reason why Duggan never asked more questions to GM Lee about history etc.

Again, all this comes from Duggan sitting up in Colorado for 20 years without contact to Hwarang Do, he's just totally out of touch with reality.
Unless this is generates a lot of interest I'll stick to history for a while.

A now very tired of politics,
Carsten Jorgensen
Copenhagen, Denmark
hwarangdo@email.com

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------------------------------

From: Arlene Slocum <ArleneS@geoaccess.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 08:57:36 -0600
Subject: the_dojang: re: Korean Language Village at Concordia Language Villages

>From: "Ross King" <koreanlanguagevillage@hotmail.com>
>Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 17:54:59 -0800
>Subject: the_dojang: Korean Language Village at Concordia Language Villages

wish they had a Korean language camps like that for "big kids" (those
"slightly" older than 18) 

Arlene Slocum
1st Dan
Lawrence Tae Kwon Do School
Lawrence, KS
ArleneS@geoaccess.com
 

------------------------------

From: Ray Terry <raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 7:28:50 PST
Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: BLACK BELT Letter Original

> Well, probably as remote as a direct lineage from a Chinese Shaolin temple
> to modern martial arts 

Well, I think most serious historians do dismiss that possibility.

> or several direct lines from the Japanese samurai to a Japanese Ryu today. 

But the samurai were around and active until just ~200 years ago.  That is
potentially a bit different.

> >>GM Choi opened his first school in 1953 <<
> 
> GM Lee and his brother was trained privately by GM Choi, they were not 
> students of any school.

???  If they learned from him they trained in this school, private or not.  
Yes?

> Anyway, Hwarang Do background history part one:
> When GM Lee started using the Hwarang name in public for his first school 
> (1960) there were NO OTHER martial arts using the Hwarang. None of the 
> styles that were united as Taekwondo 5 years later, or any other style, 
> were tracing their history back to using the Silla Hwarang.

But I do see a relationship here to the apparent need to connect the new
Korean arts of the 40s, 50s, and 60s to Korean history.  As in Hwang Kee
switching to the term Soo Bakh Do or in Kuk Sul Won's attempt to link to 
the so called Korean Royal Arts or Hapkido's link to ancient tribal arts.
Or the 'fact' that Taekwondo is 2000 years old.

As for what type of proof one might have, how about other students?  Or
other monks trained in the same arts?  Or witnesses?  The list goes on...

Ray Terry
raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com

------------------------------

From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" <Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov>
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 09:04:29 -0600
Subject: the_dojang: RE: Leadership

Dear Ray: 

"...as examples (IMHO), if JB Lee had not been a leader we would not have
HRD.
If Han-jae Ji had not been a leader we would not have Hapkido.  If the
original
Kwan founders had not been leaders we would not have Taekwondo...." 

This is just a bit of a side-step and perhaps I am just picking nits,
however, I don't know that I would necessarily identify people who start
organizations or styles as leaders. I will agree that it takes a lot to
start an organization and probably more to keep it going. However, I have
always identified people as leaders who have encouraged groups by their
example, and helped followers to find how the organization or effort to
which they adhere brings the followers out of the best part of themselves.
There are a lot of organizations which furnish a card, certificate,
newsletter and patch and that's about it. To my way of thinking it does not
take a leader to produce this kind of effort. On the other hand, talking to
followers who have a true bonding and loyalty to an individual based on
their leading-by-example is probably the best measure of leadership. For the
two individuals you mentioned, GM-s Ji and Lee this is probably the case in
that I have heard a number of people espouse strong feelings about these
individuals as leaders. For someone like GM Seo whose Kidohae covers a range
of styles and arts perhaps this is less so. Most certainly this is the case
for the vast numbers of people who through an organization up the flag-pole
to see who salutes. They are probably astute businessmen. I wouldn't
guarantee that they are leaders. 

Best Wishes, 
Bruce W Sims 
www.midwesthapkido.com <http://www.midwesthapkido.com>  


------------------------------

From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 08:52:33 -0600
Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #62

Dear Cheree: 

"...(I am assuming you are referring to nomadic lifestyles, as herding 
cultures are.)..." 

Kinda, sorta. I think what was a little closer to my point was locating
material that would support the common conceptions about how individuals
came to use their feet in combat. Two of the most common traditions
regarding the development of kicking techniques in northern China and Korea
focus on a.) distances to travel and b.) mountainous terrain. What I was
moving towards was the idea that if this information is valid one could
reasonably expect may peoples of mountainous areas to develop kicking
techniques. For my part I was identifying the herd and horse riding aspects
of  N E Asia as a possible factor. It would be interesting to hear any
information people have. I know one correlation is with the Thai people who
are descended from Tibetan tribes which invaded SE Asia generations ago.
There are also some interesting sports utilizing feet in the Indian
territories close to the Himalayan foothills. But I don't know of any foot
oriented techniques from say, Switzerland or Chile or Peru or  the Anatolian
Plateau (Turkey) or the moutainous area of the Balkans. Do you have any
thoughts on this? 

Best Wishes, 
Bruce W Sims 
www.midwesthapkido.com <http://www.midwesthapkido.com>  

------------------------------

From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" <Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov>
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 09:10:17 -0600
Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #62

Dear Gary: 

"...After about 8-9 months of that, I switched to a TKD school. Early into
my 
training, as I was about to spar my instructor, I told him I had no cup on. 
So as soon as the match started, he kicked me hard in the groin, then said 
"never forget your cup". And I was hooked !!!!!!!!!! Stayed with the Korean 
arts ever since...." 

And this was a good thing? 

Bruce 


------------------------------

From: Ray Terry <raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 7:39:16 PST
Subject: the_dojang: .


------------------------------

End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #65
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