From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #66 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 29 Jan 2001 Vol 08 : Num 066 In this issue: the_dojang: GM West's Seminar - TGT Section Cancelled? the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #65 the_dojang: RE: Got cup? the_dojang: Korean torture the_dojang: RE: Daily Carry Knife the_dojang: RE: Of Letters and Leaders Re: the_dojang: RE: Daily Carry Knife the_dojang: Re: Ken's Travel Log, Vol II. No. 6 the_dojang: TV, Hwarangdo and getting kicked in the gonads the_dojang: Kerambit the_dojang: Children's HKD? the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dana Vaillancourt" Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 15:35:43 Subject: the_dojang: GM West's Seminar - TGT Section Cancelled? Now don't take this verbatim, because it may merely be a rumor, but I had heard that the seminar class on TGT was canceled due to complications. Apparently the local humane society was making a fuss (no matter the long cultural tradition of the practice)and the National League for the Prevention of Immigration of TG's threatened picketing. Apparently, midwestern gophers felt that, although they considered the practice demeaning and somewhat tasteless, they should get any potential seminar spots before their foreign counterparts! Go figure! Oh well, obviously all in good fun! Hope you all have a great training experience. I hope to make it also some day!! Dana _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 10:34:54 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #65 In a message dated 1/29/01 9:15:13 AM Central Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << "...After about 8-9 months of that, I switched to a TKD school. Early into my training, as I was about to spar my instructor, I told him I had no cup on. So as soon as the match started, he kicked me hard in the groin, then said "never forget your cup". And I was hooked !!!!!!!!!! Stayed with the Korean arts ever since...." And this was a good thing? Bruce >> Yes, some of us get high on contact. Of Course, this kind of training lesson today is gone, and for the best. gary New CKC Web Page ------------------------------ From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 10:08:34 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Got cup? > > training, as I was about to spar my instructor, I told him I had no cup > on. > > So as soon as the match started, he kicked me hard in the groin, then > said > > "never forget your cup". And I was hooked !!!!!!!!!! Stayed with the > Korean > > arts ever since. > > > > and I've never forgotten to wear it since. > > > > gary pieratt > > Would have you felt the same way if you had been injured by the kick? This is irresponsible. You may now remember to wear your cup, but there are less abusive ways to get the message across. Kerry ------------------------------ From: Carsten Jorgensen Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 11:09:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Korean torture >> How embarrassing. Will I ever be taken as a 'serious' consultant again????? For those in Korea, my on-camera torture will be this Sunday at 4.50 KBS2 'Hanguk-i poinda' Yours in shame, Andrew Pratt >> Hehe it gets worse Andrew - KBS2 has live fed at http://www.kbs.co.kr/onair/ :-) See you, Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark hwarangdo@email.com - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ------------------------------ From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 10:17:23 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Daily Carry Knife <> There are many grips and they all have strengths and weaknesses. <> Gripping a knife is very different than gripping a stick. A stick has no sides to it, no edge to it and only asks for a percussive response. Knives have many variables and how one grips a knife dictates how one might use the primary and secondary parts of a knife. One needs to be able to make use of several parts of the knife: · The primary edge of the blade · The secondary edge or clip of the blade · The tip of the blade · The flat of the blade · The butt of the handle Forward Hammer Grip: One holds the knife upright, blade coming out the top of the gripping hand, as one would grab a hammer. Generally one's hand is not jammed up tight to the knife guard. There is enough space between the top of the hand and the guard of the knife that the change to Saber Grip is only a change of thumb placement not re-gripping the knife itself. The actual amount of space is about one thumb's thickness. Placement of the thumb is again different in various styles. The standard is the thumb can lock the first finger second joint as if in a closed fist actually grasping a hammer. This position allows for rotation of the wrist and proper position for slicing motions. Fingering Grip variation: This grip was used with Sword & Dagger during the combative phases of their usage. The first finger rides over and around the guard allowing for better balance and ease of thrusting. Because the finger was exposed swords and daggers developed what were known as "finger rings". These rings were placed over the guard along the blade to protect the user's fingers from an opponent's blade. The use of fingering also worked for most swords and daggers had ricasso's (the portion of the blade just above the hilt or guard) with no significant edge. Today the use of fingering is best left to knives such as sub-hilts, such as made by Loveless and functional fixed blades such as Randall knives which have a finger space and no edge over the guard which allow the use of a Fingering Grip. Folders are not made to use this Fingering Grip. The Fingering Grip if used in blade to blade work, or combative usage, and one has no finger guard, such as steel plate, steel rings, gauntlet, glove or something to prevent the cutting of one's finger, one could become finger-less. Saber Grip: One holds the knife upright, blade coming out the top of the gripping hand, as one would grab a hammer. The difference between the Hammer Grip and the Saber Grip is the placement of the thumb and the actual use of the knife while in the different grips. One's hand is not jammed up tight to the knife guard. There is enough space between the top of the hand and the guard of the knife that the thumb can rest on the spine of the handle pushing gently into the guard. The actual amount of space is about one thumb's thickness. On a knife without a guard the thumb would rest on the spine of the knife. Saber Grip due to the placement of the thumb is best for tip ripping, thrusting, and cutting thrusts (toe to heel). By placing the thumb in an upright position over the hand, (up the spine of the knife into the guard area) the muscles in the joint of the wrist and thumb tighten, wedging the knife into the hand but decreasing the amount of wrist rotation and slashing ability. Fencing Grip: The Fencing Grip has the advantage of allowing draw cuts with any type of weapon including a straight razor without fear of losing one's own fingers. The grip is on the sides of the weapon holding the edge parallel to the ground. It has little combat meaning and usage with fixed blades today, but with the advent of tactical folders that open one handed by thumb rotation, fencing grip is very important. When a tactical folder is opened by way of a thumb ramp, thumb stud, thumb disc, or a thumbhole, the initial position upon opening is the classic straight razor Fencing Grip. The thumb is on the flat of the blade and the knife is in a horizontal position. This is a slicing grip. This grip has no power for striking or hacking or thrusting but it is very effective for circular slicing. Upon slicing a re-grip is done to change into a Hammer Grip. The Fencing Grip rotates into Reverse Grip very easily within the actual motion of the cut. Reverse Grip: The common name of the Reverse Grip is the ice-pick grip because an old fashioned ice pick is held in that manner. It is the same as a Hammer Grip except the blade comes out the bottom of the hand rather than the top. This grip is not the ultimate grip nor the sign of a true knife fighter...but when one is up close and personal, reverse grip is the strongest for punching and slashing the knife into an object and trapping the opponent's limbs. Picking with the tip works great while using the Reverse Grip. Power in the Reverse Grip comes from the bending of the elbow and the hinging action of the arm from the elbow coupled with the swinging motion of the whole arm. A straight arm with the elbow locked out and the wrist thrust forward to achieve extended reach, defeats the power of the Reverse Grip. Reverse grip may have more power for stabbing into an object but it has less reach and slashing ability. A closing motion slash is very powerful using a reverse grip but the reverse grip is in a compromised wrist position. An upward slash is powerful even if at the end of a shortening arc while a downward has the same problems as an opening motion slash: lack of articulation of the wrist and a compromised position of the wrist. Knife grips change according to range. There is no best overall knife grip. Each grip has its own place. From long range to medium range Hammer Grip, Saber Grip work best. From medium range to close range Fencing Grip and Reverse Grip work best. That's why dexterity drills are taught so that the act of changing grips within the flow of combat is a natural occurrence. As for blade orientation on each grip, that varies by instructor, BUT I must say that I teach that the edge MUST ALWAYS be pointed towards the opponent. This is my personal feeling for I believe that the opponent should first have to run THROUGH the edge of my knife to come into contact with me. <> Only to be topped by the Spyderco produced Bram Frank design of the Gunting. What a knife a knife for martial artists designed by a martial artist and designed to be used closed. The first that uses a Compression lock and the first to utilize the kinetic opening horn. Michael Rowe ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 10:38:59 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Of Letters and Leaders Dear Carsten: Thank you for taking time to examine my writing. To answer your question the letter was written back in October and I think was originally submitted to BLACK BELT magazine in November. But I think a very important point is being overlooked in your examination of this material and that is the original intent. The whole purpose of the letter was not to focus on the material that GM Lee uses but rather the manner in which the material is used. It was not the statements that he was making but the obvious effort to treat to some goal other than simply relating historical fact that bothered me. My sense is --- and this is my personal opinion--- what we are dealing with here is not unlike many of the arguments that rise up concerning religion, and religious tracts and religious figures. In the absence of overwhelming documentation (and sometimes in spite of it) people are going to simply choose what they wan to believe about individuals independent of what that individual has really done or not done. To my mind it seems as though people are working very, very hard to make something of material here and I am left wondering that if this material is indeed so close to the truth why is it such a laborious effort for this material to stand on its own merit? Suppose Suahm Dosa really was the 57th or 58th or 59th GM of Um-Yang or HwaRang --- what exactly is the point here? Am I to understand that without this provenance the art touted by GM Lee is suddenly not worth what it should be? Does HwaRangDo only draw its validation from connecting over 1600 years back to the 3 Kingdom period? In my classes I teach that Hapkido stems from a heritage of 1600 years. Now, I will bandy words with the best of them, but in the end it what I choose to believe, and its what I teach and I don't spend a lot of sleepless nights worrying about how to convince people otherwise. I don't understand how it is that a 50-y/o nobody from Illinois comes to a place that I would have guessed somebody of GM Lees' stature could have arrived at years ago. I bought this persons' books back in the 70-s and here it is Fall of 2000 and there are still the carefully worded responses to get people to buy a particular position. Heres' where I think I am coming to with this. If we can talk history and the facts and documents associated with it I want to talk history and lets share what we know and everyone benefits. This will entail facts and documents and historical conclusions generally acccepted by the academic community. If this is going to be one of those mindless "yes-he-did;no-he-did'nt" execises I can't help 'cause this sounds like a lot of personal crap that needs to be sorted out on an individual level. Who is Master De Alba to me? Honestly? He's a name I have seen in an ad in a MA magazine. Who is Master Duggan? Haven't the foggiest. Who is GM Lee? He's a guy working very hard to run a business. I don't have a problem with that. But how about if we come back to earth for a while, yes? Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 9:24:42 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: RE: Daily Carry Knife > There are many grips and they all have strengths and weaknesses. But some have more weaknesses than strengths. That was one of Kasper's points. He'll have more comments in the April issue of Tactical Knives. > Gripping a knife is very different than gripping a stick. A stick has no > sides to it, no edge to it and only asks for a percussive response. Perhaps, but not if one is a student/instructor of -perhaps- the premier stick/knife art, Eskrima. The stick does have an edge and we always worry about the orientation of that edge. The back may also have an edge. The sides are not sharp, but they are hard and it can hurt pretty good when they hit you. > Knife grips change according to range. There is no best overall knife grip. The best grip is however you happen to be holding your knife when the feces hits the oscillator. Yes? In the vast majority of cases, you won't be able to get to your knife at all. But one thing is for sure, you don't go changing your grip when/if are able to get a hold of it. The best IMHO is the KISS approach. I focus on the earth (ice-pick) and the heaven (hammer) grips as that completely covers the orientation of the knife, assuming you can get your hands on one. Systems (e.g. Pekiti Tirsia) that focus on the smaller knives that people are likely to carry (blade length ~4" or less) focus primarily on the earth grip. But I do agree that we should be familiar with other grips, especially given the above best grip axiom. I like being able to do a 360 degree back spinning heel kick to the head, but I rely on low front and low roundhouse kicks in the heat of life/death struggles. > Only to be topped by the Spyderco produced Bram Frank design of the Gunting. > What a knife a knife for martial artists designed by a > martial artist and designed to be used closed. The first that uses a > Compression lock and the first to utilize the kinetic opening horn. We tried it, not too impressed. The locks do not seem to be well made and are apt to close on you. Unfortunate as I like the rest of it, but not as an in the office daily carry knife. Re the closed position, can't any folder with a handle length of ~5" or so be used in the closed position? Shoot, even my little 3.5" handled Buck folder can be used to load my fist, not that my fist needs loading :) . Good topic, your comments are excellent. Please keep'em coming... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Chris S Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 11:21:34 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Ken's Travel Log, Vol II. No. 6 >Looking for a knife shop. Also looking to purchase a Kerambit. Is this a >common Filipino weapon ? I'm not too sure sbout FMA, my exposure to that is somewhat limited, but in IMA(Indonesian), it's very common. I believe the kerambit with a blade on bottom is a regular kerambit, we usually use one that also has a smaller hooked blade on top, and this is called a garuda kerambit. Unfortunately, I don't know which styles use it a lot, since the IMA I take, Mande Muda, is a composite of many Silat styles. CHris ------------------------------ From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 13:23:33 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: TV, Hwarangdo and getting kicked in the gonads What an interesting edition of the Digest! :) Andrew wrote: For those in Korea, my on-camera torture will be this Sunday at 4.50 KBS2 'Hanguk-i poinda' Andrew, any chance of getting a tape of this from you? :) This sounds TOO funny! I'm glad you took it in stride! Carsten wrote: You can do some investigation in how old, and for how long, the other original Korean masters trained with GM Choi. You'll probably find it interesting if you think the above is interesting. To me it just another examples on how Suam Dosa always was a greater influence than GM Choi. I've got to agree with this. "Time in rank" requirements are notoriously flexible in martial arts before 1970, and particularly in Asia. Carsten also wrote: The Hwarang name was not 'chosen by GM Lee because of Korean national pride' or to 'differentiate it from the Japanese martial arts' as I have seen people speculate. There were none of these tendencies in Korea in 1960, it came later (look it up). Now this I have to disagree with. The late 1950s (post Korean War) period definitely saw a rise in nationalism and a movement away from Japanese based arts. That's why Gen. Ch'oe came up with "t'aekwondo" in 1955 and that's why Ki Hwang came up with "subakdo" in 1958. There was an attempt not only to come up with more national arts (witness Ch'oe) but also to link these arts with ancient Korean arts (witness Hwang). Both of these attempts predate the appearance of Hwarangdo. Carsten also wrote: There were no name recognition in the Hwarang name when GM Lee started using it. I really can't see how you could say this. Are you saying that there weren't books extolling ancient hwarangdo before 1960? That's not right, because with a simple examination of OCLC's holdings, I find _Hwarangdo_ (1948), which is described as "A collection of Hwarang stories with an introductory account of the Hwarang military cult." Fusanoshin Ayugai's _Karo Ko_ (1932) also is listed as containing information on the "hwarang." And these are just what I find on the web. I'm sure more could be found by going into various periodical guides that are not yet on the web. Carsten also writes: and I have seen GM Lee's original book from 1968 in Korea (I got a copy of it later), Great! Can you tell us the exact title and how GM Lee's name was listed? Then we can try finding copies ourselves. I'm sure others would be interested. Gary wrote: "...After about 8-9 months of that, I switched to a TKD school. Early into my training, as I was about to spar my instructor, I told him I had no cup on. So as soon as the match started, he kicked me hard in the groin, then said "never forget your cup". And I was hooked !!!!!!!!!! Stayed with the Korean arts ever since...." and Bruce responded: And this was a good thing? Thanks Bruce! I was beginning to think I was the only weirdo who didn't like getting kicked in the nards. At least there's one more out there! If this had happened to me, I probably would have said "see ya later!" Sounds pretty unprofessional to me. Especially since I know someone who lost a nut from this happening to him (accidentally, not intentionally). Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 10:55:10 PST Subject: the_dojang: Kerambit >Looking for a knife shop. Also looking to purchase a Kerambit. Is this a >common Filipino weapon ? The kerambit is more common to the IMAs (Indonesian Martial Arts) than to the Philippines and FMA (Filipino Martial Arts). Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: hogwldfltr@cs.com Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 14:45:28 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Children's HKD? Hello All, AS some may remember I am currently studying HKD here in Tucson; my 14 y/o son is also taking classes with me. My nine y/o daughter went with us to the last class and was facinated by the dive rolling and throughs. At our school, HKD is an adults only program; TKD is for all. I was surprised when I was in LA over Christmas to see HKD only schools. We visited one near Monrovia with mainly young kids taking HKD classes. I am curious about how many instructors have younger children taking HKD? Do you use a significantly different curriculum? Master Jae Kim and I are discussing the possibility of HKD for kids here. He is thinking about the possibility. I am asking for recommendations. Thanks you in advance for any ideas you might have towards such a program. Best regards, Lee Fisk Tucson ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 12:51:07 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #66 ******************************* It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.