From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #68 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 30 Jan 2001 Vol 08 : Num 068 In this issue: the_dojang: Original HKD Curriculum the_dojang: Re: HKD kids the_dojang: Titles the_dojang: Hand Conditioning the_dojang: children's HKD the_dojang: A Question of Balance the_dojang: Hapkido and Children the_dojang: Re: Daily Knife Carry Re: the_dojang: Re: Daily Knife Carry the_dojang: New Topic-- Free Sparring, Competition Sparring and Contact the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron Bain" Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 22:07:52 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Original HKD Curriculum A while ago there was mention of the "original" HKD curriculum, and I've kinda been intrigued with this subject recently. I know that it's a "slightly" controversial subject....but I'm curious about Choi Yong Sul's original curriculum and the original KHA curriculum. Does anyone have a written outline of either or both? And did someone mention that the HKD Bible by Dr. Kimm was identical (or close) to the original KHA curriculum? Don't know why I don't have this book yet.....must order. Thanks, Ron ------------------------------ From: "Todd and Debi Deininger" Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 20:39:11 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: HKD kids Bruce wrote "1.) Children are not mentally and emotionally prepared to handle Hapkido. The art I am speaking of isn't warmed over Aikido but the traditional art including weapons, chokes, locks and pins, throws and breakfalls. Nor are they developed enough to appreciate the philosophical underpinnings of the art." I would have to disagree here Bruce. I taught children HKD for six years and the program I left is still going strong. As for the throwing, pins, and breakfalls, Judo kids have been doing this from the beginning of judo. Granted there are defintitly things I would not teach a child, but there are also certain things I wouldn't teach a white belt either. With all the escapes and control techniques HKD has to offer, I beleive HKD has a lot to offer children. Plus throw in the many kicks and styles of kicking HKD offers kids have a blast. One thing I always told my young students though was that there were techniques I would not show them because they were dangerous for kids to practice. Children love honesty. As for the "philosophical underpinnings of the art", can they understand philosophy at all. Todd ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 02:38:17 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Titles Carsten writes: > I didn't know we started to use titles here, if we do I'm a Sabum. All the > ranks are on hwarangdo.com btw (full disclosure :-) Hello Carsten: I was raised using titles, and I am still not comfortable not using them. This is especially hard for me when first meeting (or corresponding with) people. If this is a fault, I apologize. In any case, no offense is meant. BTW, I hear you about the politics. Sincerely, Rudy ------------------------------ From: Martin Price Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 05:10:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Hand Conditioning All, I would be very interested in hearing of different methods of hand conditioning. I took a 15 year sabbatical from TKD and started back in November. Knowing that I will need to recondition my hands again, I started working on the heavy bag last night. As I was doing this one of the younger students (green belt) asked me how I made the bag jump on the chains rather than just swing? As I was showing him how to put his entire body into it and when to snap the wrist, he asked if I knew my knuckles were bleeding? After realizing they were I started working on knife hands and palm strikes with him. HMMM I kind of got off subject. Besides working on the heavy bag and on sand are there any other methods anyone uses that has proven to work well for them in hand conditioning? Martin One of the Gray Beards ___________________________________________________ GO.com Mail Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com ------------------------------ From: "mo :b" Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 08:30:12 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: children's HKD We have kid's classes at Moo Ye Kwan...beginner...advanced beginner, advanced youth, and an all ages/all levels class. My students range from 7-14 years old. Although this is my first session teaching, the kid's program has been around under Master Whalen for...well...let's just say a long time. I teach a lot of the theories and principals of HKD (circle, water, harmony, 9 virtues) as well as Korean terminology and history. The younger kids learn basic kicks and break aways, and the older ones learn everything else that an adult would (but, for example, they don't need to know as many joint locks from a particular area as an adult would). They are responding really well and are like little sponges waiting to learn the next virtue or joint lock. My only hesitancy is whether or not to teach kids defenses against weapons (particularly knife and gun). I asked this on the digest a couple of weeks ago, but no one responded. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Dana Vaillancourt" Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 13:48:50 Subject: the_dojang: A Question of Balance Greetings! There is an interesting topic that I'd like to figuratively throw on the table. I like to personally view it as a question of balance or ying/yang (um/yang). It has to do with training, family and professional interests. Rich Hodder's post on marriage and Melinda's posts on one's own children in the DoJang made me think of it again. I'll venture to say that most individuals in a successful marriage have learned to compromise. A person training at a constant level of high intensity or working at the same level has little time and thoughts for other things. Most often, a balance is reached that allows for some time involved with each facet of your life. If balance is not reached, something gives or is lost. Balance is obviously not static and changes constantly as life brings new or resurrects old challenges. I would be lying to say that I do not fantasize about training instead of working, and occasionally, training instead of being a full-time parent and husband. While a singular training venue can be construed as a selfish lifestyle and one lacking in social balance, it has a warrior appeal. G. Funakoski is often seen or touted as a paragon of a martial lifestyle. Many forget that the man had a day job, a wife and a family. Although, later in his life (in Japan), he left his wife behind [by her choice] and propagated his martial art abroad. I believe his wife even died while he was in Japan. Not being from his culture, my world view of his actions come with a certain amount of ethnocentrism. However, was his gift of this art, or spreading of this art, worth the obvious personal sacrifice? Or, more relevant, the sacrifice to his family? I was in a unique position several years ago. I changed jobs/states and moved ahead of my family for several months. During this time, I worked and then worked-out literally 2-4 hours per day. I started to recapture the physical condition I had previously enjoyed and the spirit that comes with superior conditioning and training. However, being in the very situation I had fantasized about, the hole left in my life from being away from my spouse and children was overwhelming. So here I am again, trying to balance work, home and training again. At this point in my life, like when my children were infants, training is getting the short straw. While children are only home for so long, and training is for a lifetime, it is sometimes hard to personally reconcile. For me [a product of my culture], balance (um/yang) is the key to a successful person and balanced people make the best teachers and role models. Students are learning more than martial arts from you and although some would say that is all we should be teaching, I believe people pick up more than physical aspects and the concept of balance in life is a worthy one to impart. Many martial artists are single or divorced, whether by choice or not. I'm not sure if there is a stronger correlation here than with other professions or sports, but being a martial arts student, I hear of time conflicts all the time. Well, enough preamble. I sometimes believe that our American cultural values may stagnate our martial training as students of "Do." I suppose those in the military may be able to merge their training and work to accommodate greater martial advancement/training. However, considering the self-defensive nature of our training in a civilized environment and our self-gratification through training, I believe most of us would choose balance. Is this a correct assumption? Do you see this in your contemporaries as well? Do your instructors and senior students mirror this? Is it a nature of education, culture, etc.? I would be curious to hear from you. For me, I have been fortunate that I met my spouse shortly after beginning training and she joined as well. She is a martial artist and sort of understands my connection with the arts, but I have been occasionally accused as being obsessive about it, even by her. OK, perhaps more than occasionally. So, I really try to think about other things and participate in other activities, but know I'd probably rather be doing martial arts. Luckily, she sort of understands me and I have struck a balance throughout our relationship. I can't imagine how it would be for couples with only one martial artist, but, balance is balance. Do I feel constrained in my training, home life, and work by maintaining a balance? Hell yes, but I have them all at some level. I guess I'm unwilling to give either up and feel somewhat grateful I can maintain such a balance. Thanks. Dana _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: LAHapkido@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:19:16 EST Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido and Children Children and Hapkido, this is a subject that is near and dear to my heart. I have been a Martial Artist since 1965 and have been teaching Hapkido since 1973. I assure you that we never have or we every will water down or teach anything other than HAPKIDO when that is what we say we are teaching. I tire of statements like" children can't appreciate the philosopical aspects of Hapkido." Children will adapt to what ever you show them. Do you teach 5, 6 and 7 year old children to do the technique all out to the point that injury may occur? I would hope not, in addition I would hope that when teaching and art as powerful as Hapkido that you would have reached a point in your training that would allow you to know just how far to push a technique without regard to the student. I have trained some wonderful children over the years that are still training today. Many of the youngsters are now NCO's and Officers serving in the U.S. Army Special Forces, Airborne, and Ranger Battalions as well as a couple who went into the U.S. Marines. They all attribute thier sucess to the training they recieved when they were young. Hapkido is not this Combat Killer System that I see so many people attempting to pass it off as. Hapkido is a Martial Arts that has been designed to help an individual be the best person that he or she can be, It is a way of life. If the need for self presavation occurs the properly trained Hapkidoist will take what ever action to protect himself as well as his loved ones. My son who is now 16 has been training in HAPKIDO since he was 4years old. He has assisted many of the adults in learning the techniques the right way without any consideration to his age or size and has done so since he was about 8 years old. Henry Tae Joon Lee, is the son of Doju Lee, Joo Bang and he has been in HwaRangDo since he was about 4 or 5. HWARANGDO,techniques are very simular to Hapkido, another is Steve Seo, who has been in KUKSOOLWON, since he was just a youngster. This Art has many Joint Locks, Throws and take downs. In fact the Majority of Instructors that teach any Martial Art that closely resemble Hapkido and have children teach or have them taught. Most Korean Children practice martial arts that have not been watered down but have been adjusted to help them better understand the total concept without making them quit before starting good. Common sense, patients and a basic understanding of what you expect from your student will gain positive results. On the other hand approaching young students with the beliefe that you have to hurt them to make them understand,only results in bad teachers. Hapkido, should be able to be done at any speed obtaining the same results. I have seen entirly to many people out there teaching Hapkido that have not got the slightest idea of what they are doing. They had a check book and went to a few seminars and because of a few dead presidents they are now teaching who the hell knows what, in the name of Hapkido. Hapkido, is an art that can be done by everyone. It is not reserved for the select few and if a small woman, or man or taught Hapkido or they given a watered down version because they may be 5ft tall and weight 100lbs. I hope not and if you do that make sure that you take the time to tell them why you are taking thier money but not giving them what they paid you for. I'm sorry that I got off track this is an issue that just get's the best of me. I can show you quite a few young men that started training with me when they were 10,11 years old that now hold thier own without any special treatment and will not give any eiather. It is all in the instruction. Grandmaster Daniel T. Rogers 8th Dan ChunKi Hapkido ------------------------------ From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:14:19 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Daily Knife Carry > Only to be topped by the Spyderco produced Bram Frank design of the Gunting. > What a knife a knife for martial artists designed by a > martial artist and designed to be used closed. The first that uses a > Compression lock and the first to utilize the kinetic opening horn. Ray then responds with : <> The locks do not seem to be well made? You have got to be kidding me! :) This lock will not accidentally close on you as a matter of fact it is the strongest lock that Spyderco has ever developed and it is a 100% improvement of the Rolling lock design that was part of its original incarnation (The Escalator by REKAT). As to any folder being able to use in the closed position. In General yes. However the Gunting has some additional features in its design such as the Persian Hilt the Kinetic Ramp all make the striking of vital areas much more practical than my buck folder. Also the simple fact that you will have to strike with your knife first before engaging is much more likely to happen that having the knife in your hand at the start. The Kinetic opening alone makes this an impressive knife. Question why not as a daily in the office carry? Michael Rowe ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 8:02:19 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Daily Knife Carry > The locks do not seem to be well made? You have got to be kidding me! :) > This lock > will not accidentally close on you as a matter of fact it is the strongest > lock that > Spyderco has ever developed and it is a 100% improvement of the Rolling lock > design > that was part of its original incarnation (The Escalator by REKAT). I'm not saying that it isn't the strongest lock that Spyderco has developed, it may be that, but the lock failed. :( Just reporting the findings after being asked to review a couple of them. Perhaps those [early?] problems were identified and fixed. I did't ask if other reviewers encountered the same problems or not... I also wasn't a real fan of the grip shape. It seemed not too comfortable in the hand in some grips (there I go countering myself wrt grips :). As to everyday office carry, the 5.5" closed length is a bit too long in my book. I like something about 4" or 4.5" max, but what do I know... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:37:08 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: New Topic-- Free Sparring, Competition Sparring and Contact Seems like we have gotten in a history rut lately. Not that history is not interesting, it is and I have learned a lot. Especially since I am not a HKD, KSW or HRD person. For all you kickers, I know in the past it seems we have all talked about whether we liked WTF or point sparring for competition, and I know everyone has their preferences. However, I am wondering how you feel about free sparring as opposed to just sparring by competition rules. More specifically, if you recognize ja yu dae ryun as seperate from shi hap dae ryun, how do you divide the time spent on each percentage in your class overall. Secondly, do the contact levels differ for the competition sparring vs. freesparring? And if you use contact during freesparring, how much and how do you graduate the contact level for gups and black belts for that matter? In other words, do you have specific levels of contact allowed at specific ranks? I know that a lot of folks say they go full contact in free sparring. I've worked out with a lot of them. But in my opinion, most martial artists that use contact use light , medium or hard contact, not full contact in free sparring. Third, what are your general rules for freesparring if you have it? In other words, do you allow contact to head? face? techniques to groin? sweeps and takedowns? grappling? attacks to the legs? ect? And last, share your reasons for using free sparring and the contact level that you do. And do you also practice freestyle attack and defense as a seperate entity from freesparring? As for myself, I am primarily Tang Soo Do. Our competitions are of the point sparring variety, both Associational and Open. I personally do not focus on competition. The acceptable strikes and targets are being narrowed so much in a lot of tournaments, that it no longer is interesting to me. In my dojang, we do about 90 percent ja yu dae ryun. I start sparring at 9th gup with no contact. That graduates to light contact at about green belt level( 6th gup), but with restrictions on sweeps, grabbing, grappling, and attacks to the legs, groin, face and throat. By 4th or 3rd gup, we increase to medium level contact. By 1st gup and cho dan bo we go hard contact probably 30 to 40 % of the time and I allow sweeps, grabbing, and attacks to the groin and face. At cho dan level, I leave things pretty much open with the only rules that everyone use sufficient control to avoid injury. What this usually stabilizes at is hard contact about 30 percent of the time, but contact is graduated according to target, to avoid injuries. Contact is also graduated according to the size of the sparring partner. In my classes, everyone spars everyone, rankwise and sex wise. The freesparring rules are controlled by the skill and rank of the lowest rank in the match, or of course injuries or other problems. As I said, I believe that there is a significant difference between hard and full contact, and we do full contact training on the bag. Probably because I and all my students are part timers. We also do freestyle self defense attacks on a regular basis starting at about 3rd gup, with attacks centered to vital points to stop the attacker as soon as possible, but with extreme control. I always conduct these matches personally and one at the time, calling end when I see usually 3 techniques that would potentially stop a person. How about it? Anyone else want to throw out what you do and how it works for discussion. I realize there are probably some pretty significant differences in the way we do things. I am not looking for mine is better than yours, just your overall objectives and methods. Danny Dunn ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 8:14:53 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #68 ******************************* It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.