From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #76 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 2 Feb 2001 Vol 08 : Num 076 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #74 the_dojang: Hapkido the_dojang: Re: Ken's Travel Log, Vol II, No. 7 the_dojang: Watch carefully my fingers never leave my hands the_dojang: 1st degree the_dojang: question Re: the_dojang: Re: Ken's Travel Log, Vol II, No. 7 the_dojang: What Hapkido really IS the_dojang: RE: self defense the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ICyrus8528@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 19:29:30 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #74 Hi Rudy, Ian Here! I am happy that you require that your students be certified in first aid and CPR. To me, this is bare minimum requirements. As a Doctor of Oriental Medicine, I require my students (particularly senior dan holders) to achieve practitioner status in Oriental Medicine (OM). It always amazes me how practitioners can spend 10 years studying how destroy an opponent and not one hour studying how to preserve a life. The likelihood of a practitioner using his martial art skills to defend him/herself is somewhat remote. However, the likelihood of a practitioner defending themselves against ill health, colds, flus, psycho-emotional disorders, stress , etc is everpresent. So, I ask, whose self are you defending? What do the rest of you think? Let's switch the debate alittle bit to something I think is more interesting. Ian A. Cyrus, Headmaster Int'l ChoSonDo Fed. ------------------------------ From: "Patrick L" Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 18:15:51 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido Dear Mr. Nguyen, Your wrote to Mr. Sims: >You seem to have a very strong conviction on what is and is not HKD. I am >not sure I understand what that is.< In posts past, Mr. Sims seems to advocate an ill defined Hapkido, and then complains about Hapkido lite! He refuses to recognise exiting authority, but wishes to establish new authority? Might I suggest that you don't ask the question, unless you want to know the non-answer. You also wrote: >HKD is infinite and we can spend a life time learning, enjoying and benefiting from it.< It is that way because Masters make it so. The hodge-podge addition of incongruent technique by non-Masters does not make infinity, it makes confusion. I wish you the best luck in your studies. Getting in the Way, Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 19:59:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Ken's Travel Log, Vol II, No. 7 Time: 11:50 am Date: 2 Feb 01 Location: Somewhere in the inner sanctums of Cebu, PI. Mr. Terry noted the following on my question about the Kerambit: Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 10:55:10 PST Subject: the_dojang: Kerambit >Looking for a knife shop. Also looking to purchase a Kerambit. Is this a >common Filipino weapon ? The kerambit is more common to the IMAs (Indonesian Martial Arts) than to the Philippines and FMA (Filipino Martial Arts). Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com> Response: Thanks for the clarification. Comments: First, an olive branch to any individuals who have misunderstood my comments. Remember, unless I have my San Miguel I get grouchy. Had the pleasure of meeting GM Cacoy Canete at his home. For the achievements he has made he is a humble man. He invited me into his home and shared several wonderful stories with me. He has even offered to provide some basic training to me, a neophyte in Arnis/Esrima. I let him throw me a few times since there was another American who visited with one of GM Canete's cousins from the U.S. GM Canete was using the Escrima sticks and various joint locks to throw this one big American guy. But the guy did not know any break falls so I let him throw me. GM Canete employs, Aikido, Judo, and Eskrima into a system he has created and called "Eskrimido". Uses similar joint locks as Hapkido and throws as in Judo. GM Canete showed me a plague presented to him by GM Choi, ITF. Keep in mind that GM Canete is approaching 82. He still can kick my butt. But this is a great experience to meet him and his family. Cheers, McD... P.S. Yesterday, I visited CarCar--a province in Cebu. Carli, brother in law, is building a retreat overlooking the Pacific Ocean. We traveled about an hour and then went to the 5 Hectares of land he owns. He has built a small house overlooking the Pacific Ocean. He has built a walk way that that goes into the Pacific Ocean. When it is high tide he takes his small boat out into the ocean, catches some fish, and has his dinner. P.S.2. There are still people living in small Nippa style huts with bamboo walls and floors. No toilets. Count your blessings. P.S. 3. I have suprisingly been behaving. Cut down my whiskey intake. Perhaps reformed ? Cheers, McD... __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 21:42:01 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Watch carefully my fingers never leave my hands Dear Luc and Alain: I think I can respond to both of you with the same answer but I am going to need to turn our questions around. You essentially both asked me what techniques or curriculum would be Hapkido. I will respond by turning this about and asking at what point are we NOT teaching Hapkido? As you both know dan jon breathing is an integral part of Hapkido training, so if I teach dan jon breathing and perhaps 50 other techniques am I teaching Hapkido? How about danjon breathing and 20 techniques? How about dan jon breathing just by itself? How about if I teach hip throws but no shoulder throws? How about strike points but no pressure points? What about only weapons? And who provides the latitude to pick and choose what gets taught and what does not? I know a GM who told me to my face that he teaches one-half of what he could or used to because his American students didn't have the dedication to learn the whole curriculum. Who gave this gentleman that kind of power? Yes, Luc, I have some very definite ideas about the art I practice and with good reason. People got on this very same Net a couple of times not so many months ago and took individuals to task for essentially making up the rules and the art as they went along. In fact individuals and authenticity gets called into question on a pretty regular basis. Where do you think such attitudes and such suspicions come from? Could it be that we all know that the parameters for Hapkido have become just a tad too elastic? As a result, maybe somebody needs to explain to me how they expect an art and a tradition to be taken seriously with such elastic parameters. Maybe then someone could also explain to me why that same art, supposedly derived in no small part from Daito-ryu, has GM masters none of whom can relate the first basic 118 techniques (Hiden Mokuroku) of the art. Perhaps someone can explain to me how it is that while Daito-ryu incorporates sword techniques of the Ona Ha Hito Ryu, there are Hapkido GM that are teaching Kendo techniques and passing it off as traditional Kumdo. I would hope someone could advise me how it is that individuals can freely introduce weapons from other systems, delete portions of various curriculums, add in material from sundry systems and still present what they are teaching as Hapkido and fall all over themselves to claim any kind of relationship to the original art. You see, you enjoy that elasticity but it comes at a price. And while there is much I still want to learn about this art, need to learn about this art, even I know enough not to shovel car parts into a wheelbarrow and call it a Buick. In the next years when those kids you have taught start to open their own schools and initiate their own arts and invent their own organizations rather than demonstrate some dedication to their heritage I hope there won't be any confusion about where they got the idea that Hapkido is just about anything that pops into their impulsive little minds. As far as the Korean approach to this issue, I can't really speak to that. I know that I have a rump full of stories about people of various ranks who go to that land one rank and come home another. I know there are plenty of stories of masters changing schools and affiliations about as readily as I change shirts. I don't study Hapkido to become a good Korean. I study to come out of the best part of myself.And for what it has done for me, in my book, Hapkido deserves better than its getting in this country.. Thanks to you both, Alain and Luc, for taking time to spend time with this. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Mitchell's" Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 23:11:36 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: 1st degree Just a quick note of congratulations to the students (including myself)of Mark Kaup Lee in Tempe Arizona that earned their 1st degree black belts on Saturday January 27, 2001. Job well done ladies and gentlemen!!! Now our journey truely begins! Vince Mitchell ------------------------------ From: Josep Lluís Ruiz Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 04:38:09 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: question 02/02/2001 Hello, Can anyone tell me anything about a KUNG JUNG MOO SOOL master calls CHOI, SOON SIK? Thank you. _________________________________________________________ http://www.latinmail.com. Gratuito, latino y en español. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 6:37:14 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Ken's Travel Log, Vol II, No. 7 > GM Canete employs, Aikido, Judo, and Eskrima into a system he has created > and called "Eskrimido". Uses similar joint locks as Hapkido and throws > as in Judo. I believe it is Eskrido, no 'm'. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 09:22:35 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: What Hapkido really IS Bruce Simms has said that there HKD should not be taught to kids, because it includes techniques that are dangerous. I personally agree with this but there were some great comments last digest... Luc wrote: Everybody agreed that there are HKD techniques that should not be taught to kids for various reasons. But most of those should not be taught to beginning adults either, yes? My reply: I'd have to say no. I tend to teach adults effective technique as soon as possible, and to present them with realistic defenses as soon as possible. An example of something you would teach adults but not kids would be a full-nelson defense. The young kids I've worked with differed in maturity levels. Now, you could probably say the same about some adults (insert smiley here!), but at least the adults are legally responsible for their own actions. Perhaps that's the difference? Alain wrote: I do understand where you are coming from, and agree with some of your points. However, are you saying that all the schools in Korea, teaching HKD, are not really teaching HKD because they have young students? Korea is the Country of HKD's origin, KHF is the largest HKD federation, and kids are taught, don't see how this could not be considered Hapkido. My reply: Great point Alain! My thought is that perhaps the difference comes from an Asian viewpoint vs. a western viewpoint. If you view one's art as the ONLY art they should be practicing, then you will adapt the techniques to your students very broadly, because EVERYTHING that is possible becomes a Hapkido technique. I would say that this is the traditional Asian outlook. If, however, you are concerned with certification in a certain training method and preservation of product identification, then you want to restrict technique to an identifiable list of techniques. This is the western, commercial version of the arts, where you can get testing fees from teaching jujutsu, and then from hapkido, and then from t'aekwondo, and so on, despite the fact that the techniques often overlap. Does this explanation make sense? Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu HKD is infinite and we can spend a life time learning, enjoying and benefiting from it. Since I don't think anybody can claim that they know everything about HKD, if we teach simple and safe HKD techniques to some kids, they can enjoy it, and benefit from it. As they grow up if they are still interested in it and continue to train they can learn more and appreciate more of its fine points. ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:26:47 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: self defense MK asked: <<<<<<>>>>>>>>> I have used kicks and stirikes. Same with a few BB students who had to defend themselves. Now I also have a student who is a bouncer. He uses more locks and pain compliance. But the situation is a lot different. I train with hard, medium, light and occasionally no contact. But I have seen a good technical bb get in real trouble with a much less skilled opponent, actually a yellow belt, and be soundly beaten, not because he pulled his technique, but because he had no experience in actually being hit hard. He got kicked hard one time and lost all focus and froze. This subject was one of the reasons behind my post a few days ago asking how dd members train. But so far, only one person responded. Danny Dunn ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 7:08:24 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #76 ******************************* It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.