From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #82 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 5 Feb 2001 Vol 08 : Num 082 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #81 the_dojang: 14th International HapKiDo Seminar the_dojang: Re: Ken's Travel Log, Vol. I, No. 8. the_dojang: Knives the_dojang: Knife fights... the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #80 the_dojang: Re: Knife fight/expecting cut the_dojang: Hapkido Master's?????????? the_dojang: how to relax Re: the_dojang: Knife fights... the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #80 the_dojang: more on the first rule the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #81 the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 23:06:03 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #81 <<<<>>>>> Ray, I knew I'd be opening a can of worms with this one, and I meant to. Good to get people thinking. Yes, the above people said that, and Michael Janich, who I know and is very good with a blade said the same in his book KNIFE FIGHTING. But then, people like Bob Kasper (Sure you know of him), Jim Grover (Sure you know of him too) and Marc MacYoung agree along the lines that I do. We don't teach to "expect" to get cut. Bob Kasper said it was ridiculous to teach to "expect" to get cut. But then what does he know? :-) (BTW, when I first heard Bob and Jim didn't teach that, it was about 6 months ago, and my reaction was like Gary's on the list, YES! Someone else!) You will get cut in a knife fight? Well.... How many knife fights have the people on this list been in? Anyone here been in one where they didn't get cut? I've been in two situations with knives. I was not cut in either. I don't call them knife fights, more knife situations. One, the guy tried to pull his blade, I hit him before he had it out. Sort of like Gary said. The other, I kept the guy away from me with a chair. (Lucky he was stupid enough to challenge me rather than rush in and stick me) I grabbed the chair right away, my goal was to not get cut. I threw the chair legs first at him and exited the bar real quick because the MPs were on the way. Glamourous? NO. Did I use some fancy techniques? NO. Am I a seasoned knife fighter? NO. But I didn't get cut two times where people wanted to cut me, and that's something in my book. (I'm glad I don't have scars to go with the stories) Marc, who I refer to often because I consider him one of my teachers and I have learned a lot from, has been in knife altercations where he didn't get cut. If you wonder what he knows, check out his book or videos on knife fighting. :-) <<<<>>>> Sorry, but I like what Marc and Steve Plink have to say on this better. Never take a cut to give a punch, and only ever take a cut to get a kill shot in. In the blindingly fast battle, do you really think you will be able to pick and choose where you are going to allow the person to cut you? Sounds good, but.... And getting control of the knife arm when the other person doesn't want you to is not quite like most people practice in the training hall. <<<<>>>> Good book, he's friends with Marc too. I havn't had a chance to meet him yet. <<<<>>>> I have seen what a knife can do, and I know how easy it is for even an untrained person to do a lot of damage with a blade. (even if they accidently cut you, it could be serious for you) I also know how difficult it is to go unarmed against a person with a knife. That is what motivates me to train! So I won't get cut! I will do everything I can, including running (Wich by the way may be your best move from the get go), to keep from getting sliced, diced and stabbed. <<<<>>>> Wich is it? You won't notice, or you will see your blood and freeze? If you won't notice it till it's over, why go into it "expecting" to get cut? Go into it with the attitude of stopping the other guy from cutting you! Do what you have to, and if you get cut in the process which is a very likely possibility, I'm not saying you "won't" get cut, I'm just saying I don't like the idea of going in "Expecting" to get cut. If you do get cut, you deal with it however you are able to, and drive on doing what you have to do, stop him or escape! I understand your train of thought Ray, many others have it too. I just have to respectfully disagree. Looks like we are both in good company, since there are some pretty reputible people who agree with both of us. (or we agree with them) :-) However, I must ask you too look at the lists. Those you are agreeing with are more MA instructors. Those I follow and tend to be with are "survival" or "Street self Defense" people. Bit different in approaches and backgrounds. That's one of the great things about this list, we can learn from different sources and look at things from different views. Yours in Training, Alain ------------------------------ From: "Geoff J. Booth" Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 15:19:13 +1100 Subject: the_dojang: 14th International HapKiDo Seminar I am proud to be apart of the up and coming seminar being hosted by Master JR West. I have been a regular (at least once a year) participant for 6 of the 7 years, and I am happy to be the consistent winner of the long distance award. Trust me If it is worth the effort of making the trip up over from the land downunda, y'all (testing my southern accent in preparation) should make a visit and experience 200+ people just having a good time doing Hapkeeter and stuff!! Of course if y'all are dropping by I am always looking for partners for my Hook punch defence. Regards Geoff Booth - A True Southerner Australian Chief Instructor Tibetan Gopher Throwing International Hapkido Alliance Australia Hapkido Group http://hapkido.netro.com.au "The art is in the person, all we have to do is bring it out" ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 22:27:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Ken's Travel Log, Vol. I, No. 8. Date: 5 Feb 01 Location: Tambuli Beach Resort, Mactan Island, Cebu, PI. Time: Forget the time, baby ! I was just on the beach sipping on a few exotic drinks. Decided to get away from the in-laws and hit a resort on the beach for a day or two. If you think I am jiving, just go to www.tambuli.com. When the pics of the beach come up, think of me. Sitting in the lounge chair, sipping on a nice drink, and maxing and relaxin'. As I sit and drink my exotic blend of tropical drinks, I am thinking of the lessons I had from two Arnis instructors of the Doce Pares system. We went through several forms, then knife techniques and disarming the knife attacker with stick and free hand. I video taped this stuff ! We went through a few sparring stick drills, a few additional Arnis/Eskrima forms, and a coupla stick drills. We then had a lunch via Filipino style. This consisted of a nice lazy susan rotating table in the family dining room. The table consisted of rice, fish, vegetables, mangos, chicken, and a few additional dishes. I am planning to have an additional lesson with GM Canete tomorrow. We also met with Master Tian, who is an Aikido Master. He has a Dojo in Cebu. On a Saturday there were approximately 30 students. They were practicing throws and falls. Master Tian discussed his philosophy of Ki concepts. He also related the true story of Steven Siegal. Thereafter, I picked up the portrait of me in a Kuk Sool Won uniform. Darn, I am not bad looking ! Well, I am gonna go back to the beach. Maybe I will practice a few stick forms, maybe I will continue to max and relax, and maybe I will go swimming in the ocean which is so warm that you refuse to leave. Don't believe me. Go to www. tambuli.com. When you see the white guy on the lounge chair= that is me. I will have a whiskey and 7 up in my hand. Just maxin and relaxin. Peace, McD... __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: RumNCoke220@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 01:58:30 EST Subject: the_dojang: Knives The knife is such a deadly and under-rated weapon. Defending yourself against a knife with your bare hands is almost certainly going to get you cut. Might not get you killed, but will probably get you cut. But to me, teaching your students that they are going to get cut conjures up images of a coach telling his team that they are going to go out and lose the big game today. Explain to your students the realities of the blade, absolutely. But subconsciously impress on them that they can't successfully defend themselves against it? Some of us kuk sool students were invited to a camp run by a Kenpo Karate instructor a few years ago and he taught a short class designed to teach the reality of the knife. The first thing he did was, without teaching us any techniques, have us partner up and defend ourselves against a rubber knife wielding partner and see how often we got cut. Darn near every time. But to me, the core aspect of martial arts training is to move towards perfection. Physically, mentally, and spiritually. Some steps small, some bigger. Do many get there? Does anyone ever really become perfect at anything? Who cares? You keep working towards it. Constantly working towards perfection guarantees improvement, at the very least. Teaching someone from the get go that the game is already over doesn't seem to fit into the martial arts. At least not my view of martial arts, which I admit is by no means universal! :-) There is a second degree black belt at my dojang who was attacked with a knife before he began his martial arts training. As I remember the story going, he was stabbed badly, but got control of the attacker and held him until the police arrived. If anyone knows the reality of the blade, it's someone like him. But he practices our dahn do maki (knife defense) techniques without providing any warnings or caveats as to their effectiveness. Keep the realities in mind, but keep them in the back of the mind. Just practice. Just get better. All kuk sool dojangs have a huge banner stretching across one of it's walls. In huge letters, it simply says: YOU NEED MORE PRACTICE. I like the drill we did with the kenpo people and I think everyone should go through that before learning any knife defense techniques. And as I practice my dahn do maki, every time I get cut, I'll just look at that banner, and tell my partner to come at me again. John Thompson ------------------------------ From: "Anthony or Clare Boyd" Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:03:11 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: Knife fights... I'm really enjoying the discussion that is developing about knife fights. I agree with Alain about the negative attitude that "expect to get cut" instills. It could be phrased in a more positve way which teaches that getting cut is not a failure in your defense. I think a lot of people think that getting cut equates to making a mistake and from what Ray is relating about his knife training this just isn't the case. However, I am willing to concede that rephrasing the statement, "expect to get cut" will run the risk of reducing the respect with which the student of self-defense should approach knife fights. I have some questions which I hope it won't be a nuisance to answer. I'm asking to help myself develop a more educated mindset about knife attacks. Is there any situation in which it is reasonable to expect to be able to defend versus a knife *without* getting cut? A lot of the situations that Ray posits seem to be surprise attacks or where the attacker has no need to go for the knife as it is already concealed in their hand. However, in cases where the attacker is involved in posturing etc (bar parking lot crap) before things deteriorate and if you were so unlucky as to fail in Adidas-Fu and Tokmawayowtda-do, could you with awareness of the knife and time to assess the attacker, be expected to leave the fight without getting cut? January was knife defense month at my Hapkido school and a lot of them seem to demand a lot from the defender. Adding the additional stress of a cut-free defense seems unreasonable. Thanks in advance, Anthony Boyd ------------------------------ From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 03:18:13 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #80 He had me out in the back yard doing a lot of drills to AVOID getting cut. That is the key! What type of drills were these? Jack ------------------------------ From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 03:30:39 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Knife fight/expecting cut I fight with the premise of the possiblity of getting cut. otherwise i think you can get over confident and make a stupid decision or move and sustain a really traumatic cut. I feel if you go in with the mindset of getting a cut and minimizing it to an area you can still fight from you will stand a much better chance of finishing the fight and your attacker. Similiar in thhinking to taking down an armed robbery suspect, cover concealment control, versus "ive got better training , crooks are amateurs and cannot shhot so i dont need to duck behind anyhting.." Jack ------------------------------ From: todd miller Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 07:03:19 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido Master's?????????? > "...Let's see now. The Grand Master eliminated half of the techniques because > we "Americans" could not handle the whole thing. The next generation throws > out a bunch more, because it did not suit their profile. The following > generation probably has some stuff that they can't make work. Other Grand > Masters pass on before they have a chance to teach it all. Hmmmmm. You > historians better start documenting this stuff fast....". > > In a handful of sentences you have managed to capture my worst case scenerio. I wish I could say this was just a bad fantasy but in fact this scene is being played out on a regular basis in Hapkido and very probably for exactly the subjective reasons you identify in your post. Nor are the people who are involved in this degradation of the art unaware of what they are doing. I have met too many personalities who despite teaching watered-down Hapkido still wish to be recognized as individuals and leaders as though they in fact taught the entire corpus. An alternate course is to take the same few techniques and simply teach them as responses to a wider range of situations grabs or strikes and and so create the illusion that the same original amount of material is still being taught. I have looked for some central cause for this and continually come back to the place that the individuals who are doing this simply don't have the developed character or patience to invest themselves ! > in truely learning art. They simply can't wait to represent themselves as something they are not and hope that noone will examine them too deeply. If you are wondering how bad this can get, I can dig through my files and find that URL to a website that lists perhaps hundreds or "associations", "federations" "kwans" and arts very commonly prefaced with the word "International" or "World". The word "grandiosity" comes to mind. > > I know I am just one person, and nobody here needs to pay any special attention to me. But don't expect me to sit by quietly and let things go into, or stay, in the toliet. I have seen the situations you have talked about. I will even take it a step beyond. Do the so called Master's & GM even know the intricacies of the Art? Without mentioning any names, I know of a Person who calls himself a master who when in Korea did not understand the white belt tech. in the least bit. but he claims that his style is different so it is ok even though he could not make any of his tech. work on them. A great many Hapkido Master's including myself have training in other arts and this is fine unless you try to mask your lack of knowledge in Hapkido by adding these other arts in place of the Hapkido curriculum. BTW I teach totally separate curriculums for all the Arts I teach. I have said this before but I think it bares repeating, If a Master is promoted to 4th dan and then promotes himself to 10th dan are the people he promotes to 7th dan legitimate Masters? Truthfully Master Todd Miller Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc. ------------------------------ From: "rich hodder" Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 12:51:49 Subject: the_dojang: how to relax Hey Mac, I didn't realize you had such a mean streak in you. Way up north here in Steamboat there is still snow up to my chest (no height jokes here) in my back yard. Needless to say the bike stays in the garage for now. I sure am looking forward to seeing grass in MS though. Speaking of which, Master West said something about after the seminar activities. I can't wait to get my fill at Wood's and then hit the Gun show. See ya'll there. Rich _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 7:26:59 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: Knife fights... > about his knife training this just isn't the case. However, I am willing to > concede that rephrasing the statement, "expect to get cut" will run the risk > of reducing the respect with which the student of self-defense should > approach knife fights. Good point. The first rule of knife fighting is rather like the first rule of firearms safety, All guns are loaded. Even when you know the gun isn't loaded, it -is- loaded. This same type of positive attitude brings us to the first rule of knife fighting, you will get cut. > Is there any situation in which it is reasonable to expect to be able to > defend versus a knife *without* getting cut? Run away! :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 09:03:52 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #80 Alain states: "I know that many teach this, and it has always bothered me. I do not teach a person to "expect" to get cut. I teach to avoid getting cut. Yes, if you get cut, you deal with it, but you don't go into it "expecting" it to happen." I have to agree with Ray on this. I think that the very idea of being cut, maybe seriously or even fatally is so scarey, that you have to teach this in order to get a student to accept it. I know that a lot of students actually come to believe that they are invincible, and when they get cut, I believe that it could lead to their mental defeat. Just consider the natural reactions of an untrained person when they get hurt. If you don't prepare a student with the idea that they will be cut, I think they don't really accept that possibility. In addition, I believe that its just like any other fight. You will be hit, no matter your level of training. It may not be the first time, or every time, but you will be hit. Doesn't mean that we shouldn't train to avoid it, just that it will happen. Danny Dunn ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 7:49:02 PST Subject: the_dojang: more on the first rule > How many knife fights have the people on this list been in? Anyone here > been in one where they didn't get cut? In one I was cut, in another the reactionary gap I had to work with was great enough that I could RUN AWAY... > Sorry, but I like what Marc and Steve Plink have to say on this better. > Never take a cut to give a punch, and only ever take a cut to get a kill > shot in. Don't take a cut to get a punch in, take a cut on the arms hands instead of taking it in the belly, neck, eyes, etc. > In the blindingly fast battle, do you really think you will be able to pick > and choose where you are going to allow the person to cut you? Yes, this is what the reaction based blocks of RKD, SKD, Krav Maga, etc are all about. Again assuming you see the attack coming at all, if not you just get cut where ever you get cut. > Wich is it? You won't notice, or you will see your blood and freeze? That depends on the person and it also depends if they've well integrated into their thinking the first rule of knife fighting. If you train to not expect to get cut, and you do, you are far more likely to go into shock and shut down. Yes? The negative approach of you won't get cut is similar to the reasoning some attempt to use against Mas Ayoob and his training of what can/may occur to you if you are attacked and have to dispatch your attacker with deadly force. Col. Jeff Cooper's approach of "after you kill your attacker, beer will taste better, sex will be better, you have faced the elephant and won" is not totally responsible. It is reasonable to expect that you'll have nightmares after killing someone, it is reasonable to expect that you'll have flashbacks, it is reasonable to expect that some of the people you thought were good friends turn out not to be because you are the person that killed so-and-so. So knowing ahead of time what can happen allows you to respond better to the aftermath when/if it occurs to you. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 10:20:52 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #81 In a message dated 2/4/01 10:16:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << The first rule of a knife fight is you will get cut. Don't think of that as a negative thing, just accept it, expect it, deal with it, and practice your survival techniques with that thought in mind. Truth be known, you probably won't even notice it/them until it is all over, one way or another. But it makes for very good motivation for proper practice. >> Um, I was eating my breakfast while reading this...YUM! ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 7:50:38 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #82 ******************************* It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.