From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #84 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 6 Feb 2001 Vol 08 : Num 084 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: read the posts again the_dojang: Korean Terms Re: the_dojang: RE: Knife Fights the_dojang: passed green belt the_dojang: Re: Knives / and fighting for you life the_dojang: RE: Knife Fights Danny's the_dojang: Backyard knife drills the_dojang: Re: Self Promotion the_dojang: RE: Biomechanical Cutting and Commandments the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 21:43:26 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: read the posts again <<<<>>>>> You really need to read what I wrote before making comments like this.... Alain ------------------------------ From: "Mac" Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 21:24:14 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Korean Terms From: Chereecharmello@aol.com <> I've heard it as "Jang Tan Do", or long daggers. From: Donnla Nic Gearailt > I believe it is "ahn-jo". ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 20:06:39 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: RE: Knife Fights >Part of my earlier post somehow got lost. I agree with Alain in that I have >always wondered if the drumming in of "you will get cut" might make someone any >more susceptable to being cut in a self defense situation. I guess most of us >use visualization as a positive tool. Ray have any of your Eskrima Masters ever >addressed this? Anyone else? Sorry, not sure I follow... Do Eskrimadors visualize getting cut and how they will react? Not that I've personally encountered, but my personal sample size is limited. For better or worse, I don't think the old Manongs (older Filipino grandmasters) go much into such things. As one example of just how close to the bone they can be, one well known Guro was asked if there was anything like Ki/Chi in the FMA (Filipino Martial Arts). He replied, "Yes, we have the Double-L!". So what is the Double-L? If you attack me and I kill you first, I Live Longer. (Live Longer, Double-L) But this is the KMA forum, not the FMA forum... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Dominic Mitchell Date: 06 Feb 2001 00:04:59 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: passed green belt Hi, I would just mention that I passed my green belt tonight at almost 37. It went very well, even though two injuries are still hanging on me ... Second, for the first time both masters mentioned the imminent merger of ITF/WTF as almost a done deal. At first, when I read about it in newsgroups or mailing list I always tended to view as rumors... How imminent is it? Cheers Dominic ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:40:45 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Knives / and fighting for you life In a message dated 2/5/2001 6:24:07 PM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I agree with Alain in that I have always wondered if the drumming in of "you will get cut" might make someone any more susceptable to being cut in a self defense situation. >> One of the ladies in my karate school was accosted at a 7-11 store that she worked at ... he came at her with a knife to rob her and she just grabbed his wrist with the knife in it and held on for dear life. She was banging his head with a metal pan (the nacho pan that she was cleaning) ... but it didn't seem to bother him in the least ... She didn't get cut and he escaped ... finally. She was very, very lucky ! And luckily she is very, very strong ! I guess fear can do that to you. Illona ------------------------------ From: "Karel van der Walt" Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 08:54:01 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Knife Fights Danny's A lady at my place of work was also stabbed in to forearm. This happened long time ago when she was working as a hotel manager and one of the employees high on the patrons unfinished drinks did what he had been threatending to do. It was a rusted kitchen knife and she offered the arm to save the body. Only until she pointed it out to me did I realise she is missing meta carpal 3 finger and all from stab in forearm and ensuing infection. She got prompt medical attention yet had to have many ops to save the hand. Point is do not expect your assailant to carry a brand new stainless steel knifemakers guild model - screw drivers etc abound. TKD is about fast feet - Run like hell. C k ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 07:59:26 EST Subject: the_dojang: Backyard knife drills In a message dated 2/5/01 8:26:40 AM Mountain Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << He had me out in the back yard doing a lot of drills to AVOID getting cut. That is the key! What type of drills were these? Jack >> Jack, If you have seen Marc's video "surviving a knife fight" by Paladin Press, you have seen some of the things we were doing. A lot of basic stuff, centered on pivots and getting your body out of the way. Then we would add different kinds of blocks and guards. Not everything we were doing was knife. One of the more interesting drills was when Marc would hand the knife to one of the exotic dancers we protected at night, and turn her loose on me. Her directions, "get him" My directions, "try not to get cut, and you can't hit back" Work on MOVING. Besides this being a good drill for practicing to get out of the way, it also showed that someone with no training at all will still get cuts in and can be dangerous with a knife. Marc didn't want me thinking that I'd get cut by him because he was experienced with a knife, but that I could get cut by anyone. Something I've said here, so don't know why people think I was saying you "Won't" get cut and thinking I think I'm superman or something. Some of the blocks we worked on were different pass blocks, bong sow (sp?) type blocks with the elbow and outer arm, etc. All of these were combined with moving the body as well, so if your block fails you, your body is getting out of the way and not staying there to get sliced and diced. Much of the moving concentrated on pivoting, but also worked at hollowing as well. After tons of those, we would work some on striking back after getting out of the way. Yours in Training, Alain Burrese ------------------------------ From: "Dana Vaillancourt" Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 13:58:11 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Self Promotion Hey Mac. Let's see, do I see a trap here!? Quick history lesson [let me know if I'm wrong]and a couple of honest questions: 1. All of the early Kwans were started by individuals with 3rd dans or less in Shotokan, or, no verifiable martial arts training (under an instructor) at all. 2. In many of the Kwans and the WTF, you can get your 1st dan in 1.5 years. Of course, "I trained 8 days a week and 12 hours per day in Korea!" 3. In all this time in a discussion of Hapkido, has anyone offered proof that GM YS Choi actually "trained" in Japan. Has anyone shown, besides questionable ethnographic reference, actual links to Hapkidoish post-1940s, 50s, 60's & 70's arts to indigenous Korean ones other than Tae Kyon? 4. Does the fact whether some people consider these individuals "legitimate" matter to them or the arts they taught and propagated at all? 5. If you follow a given standard in a given organization and receive rank, isn't that "legitimate" in that organization? Of course, what is the parity in the bigger picture of arts using the same name and isn't the reason they don't all agree the reason often for different organizations? 5. In regards to Mac's "Quarter Century milestone," Congrats Mac! And to those of you who meet Mac at Master West's seminar, don't be lulled in for a minute!! Back to shoveling snow! Dana > >From: "Mac" >Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 19:35:51 -0600 >Subject: the_dojang: Self Promotion > >I've seen some discussion on this list and another about martial artists >who >with not a vast amount of experience that either split off from their >parent >organization or start their own Kwan and become grandmaster. How do yall >really feel about these guys? Would you ever join their organizations? > >I read in this one guy's book he wrote that after training for only about 9 >years he started his own Kwan and organization. He boasts of having quite >a >few dan members, but looking closely at his requirements he only required >1.5 years to dan level. This "grandmaster" has a pretty successful >organization, I know at least here in the US, and I believe in many >countries as well including Korea. > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 08:13:52 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Biomechanical Cutting and Commandments Dear Michael: Thanks for sharing both of your posts. One point that caught my eye in particular was the statement in your second post about using a knife to threaten. This hit a nerve with me as many of the people that I know who practice MA seem to do so out of a position of being able to more effectively "challenge" an attacker rather than do actual harm. In contrast, I make it very clear in my classes that I am not teaching people how to "posture" or intimidate. Interestingly, though, I am routinely surprised at the regular response from many students who, when taught a particularly effective throw or lock comment that "this could really hurt a guy!" Every so often I lead a class outside to the pavement and sidewalks where it suddenly becomes apparent that a person receiving a full shoulder throw to the sidewalk is going to incur significant damage to the head and shoulders. I share this information because I wonder if people truly appreciate what they are asking for when they request to learn a traditional MA. I suppose that it feels pretty neat to swing a sword and perhaps even cut a target, but are we talking about people who are actually working to engender a martial girding of the spirit to face life on lifes' terms, or is this actually more MA theatre? I wonder how many people who pull a folder from their pocket having attended a knife seminar of some sort, actually appreciate that they are inviting that day to possibly be the last one they will see in this life. Expanding that comment to include your post on biomechanics, it would be interesting to know how many MA students (MA not MS) are prepared to accept responsibility for maiming another individual in the name of protecting themselves or others. Then there is the matter of retribution. To damage a member of a group supposes that one of that individuals' loyal compatriots may easily take up the "challenge" and ambush the MA as an act of revenge. As warriors in training are we prepared to accept and deal with this eventuality? It is not for no reason that warriors of old are characterized as light sleepers and a shade hair-triggered. Still, I don't know many of our modern practitioners who are ready to cash such a check with their life-styles, no matter how sincerely they write said check on the clear slate of their minds in the ink of emotion. We don't teach our students that they will be cut in a knife fight for the same reason most students are not taught that they will be hit or kicked in a fist fight or that despite years of training, on any given day, anyone can lose a fight and be seriously injured. I sincerely wish that I could get a copy of that documentary from MSNBC on violence in prisons and show it to each and every person who wants to learn a martial art. Until I saw that I used the battle scene from BRAVEHEART to try and characterize the sort of NHB combat experience one might face at 3am just off of Rush Street in Chicago. Watching that documentary should be a requisite to anyone who is wondering what they would do in a fight (knife or otherwise). I hope you will keep you information coming, Michael. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 7:12:58 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #84 ******************************* It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.