From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #85 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 6 Feb 2001 Vol 08 : Num 085 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: Leadership Skills the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #83 the_dojang: RE: Korean Terms the_dojang: getting cut the_dojang: WTF/ITF merger the_dojang: More Information the_dojang: Principles for Combat the_dojang: Re: Self-promotion the_dojang: Broken Hand the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #83 the_dojang: Retribution the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sims, Bruce W. NCHVAMC" Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 08:44:27 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Leadership Skills Dear Patrick: Its probably a good thing that we disagree about the nature of leadership and its relationship to those being lead. Diversity will keep our art healthy, and if nothing else we could use a wide spectrum of divergent thought from which to draw our planning for the future. So I will begin my response by congratulating you on the strength of your convictions and to emphasize that I write this with no intention of wanting to convert you to any other way of thinking, yes? There is an inter-relationship between leaders and those who are lead and this is probably best seen in the "Mandate of Heaven" which was the ideal by which Chinese emperors held authority over their people. Most certainly they held the absolute power of life and death over their citizenry and the citizens owed them absolute fealty. However, the "glue" that held this system together was that in response to absolute fealty of the citizens, the emperor worked for the absolute good of his subjects. Failing this, the emperor lost his Mandate and the people were no longer bound to give him absolute loyalty. In our own time, Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence that it was not just the right of people to overturn an unjust leader but their responsibility. In the military, officers are taught that simply using regulations to cause men to follow them is not sufficient and that there is a relationship which must be cultivated between an officer and his men. Turning the coin over, there are also international sanctions and policies that relieve a soldier from following orders from an officer should those orders be immoral, unethical or illegal. In the US, our government is a balance between 3 branches in the hopes that each branch will maintain checks and balances on the other two. Most corporations with CEO-s and CFO-s also have boards of directors as counter balances as well as various committees to study and develop policy, plans and procedures. Even religious faiths and organizations have leaders as well as boards and committees in balance against any position of absolute power. In all of these cases, the key word is "balance", and I don't know that any of the leaders are undermined by the accountability that is asked of them. In the MA I think that we have matured to the place where dictatorial powers of GM-s has been out-grown. Perhaps in the early years of development in this country, MA benefitted from a strong hand and less flexibility in sharing authority. However, it has been quite a few years since 1946 when Robert Trias opened his first Karate school in Arizona. We have been through a lot of fads and changes. Perhaps it is time to take a more mature approach towards managing our arts including the expectation that anyone who identifies themselves as a GM submit to that accountability from their constituency that any other leader would. I believe that a significant portion of MA training is to develop and instill in all practitioners both the skills of following and of leadership. What better way to do this than be pratice and example, neh? Thanks, Patrick. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 09:42:45 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #83 << Late last week someone asked what the Korean term for a Sai was. >> It is * juk do *, according to Tang Soo Do Master, Ko. ------------------------------ From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 08:51:43 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Korean Terms From: Donnla Nic Gearailt > <> Actually "ahn-jo" mean to sit. The seiza position is a knelling position so the term given to me by Grandmaster Yong Chin Pak was "jung-zwa" Michael Rowe ------------------------------ From: mtomlins@mail.volusia.k12.fl.us Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 09:55:16 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: getting cut I have been cut in a couple of knife altercations, once on the outside knuckles and once on the inside webbing of my hand, both times it happened very very fast and the one on the knuckles I saw happen in slow motion it seemed, the other one happened as I was blocking the stabbing motion, in both instances I didn't go into shock or anything, it actually pissed me off!! And at this time during the altercations it was like I got an extra burst of energy and came out ok both times. Another time a guy tried to stab me thru the passenger side window of my truck as I was stopped, luckily for me he couldn't reach me all the way and I kept jamming his knife down into the passenger seat. He cut my interior up pretty good! Now I never drive with my passenger window rolled down all the way, the fact that he couldn't get in all the way thru my window saved my life. I finally dumped the clutch and drug him down the road until he fell off of my truck. After the third or fourth block something in my head said "you better move now or die"!!! One other time I viewed a guy getting stabbed in the abdomen with a knife and he bled to death before the ambulance got there. Don't want to go into detail with that incident. Another time a friend of mine got into a stupid altercation with this guy and body slammed him on the ground. While my buddy was trying to hit this guy in the head the other dude carved his thighs up with a knife, my friend Bruce took 180 stitches in his thigh. He wasn't trying to "kill" Bruce, just teach him a lesson. As you can tell, I grew up in a pretty "ACTIVE" neigborhood! In ALL of these instances the attack happened so fast that me or the other people didn't have time to do anything but react,, no time to think "I am gonna get cut, I don't want to get cut, I must move not to get cut, etc. etc. etc." when it happens it just happens,, and hopefully you have trained enough to react and survive. I think when you train you have time to think about getting cut or not getting cut because your brain knows it is not real. When the knife is real and the person holding it is NOT your friend then everything is TOTALLY different! If I ever had an option against a knife I would run like crazy and get out of there. Of course I train against knife attacks in my Hapkido training and have studied with really good knife people like Master Whalen. You must build up your reflexes and learn disarms. This can only happen thru many many repetitions and not by being philosophical. And unfortunately when it does happen it is NEVER like you trained for. Knife fighting is no joke and it is not philosophical it is just brutal! Michael Tomlinson ------------------------------ From: "Robert Martin" Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 07:57:45 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: WTF/ITF merger > > From: Dominic Mitchell > Date: 06 Feb 2001 00:04:59 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: passed green belt > > Hi, > > I would just mention that I passed my green belt tonight at almost > 37. It went very well, even though two injuries are still hanging > on me ... > > Second, for the first time both masters mentioned the imminent > merger of ITF/WTF as almost a done deal. At first, when I read > about it in newsgroups or mailing list I always tended to view as > rumors... How imminent is it? > > Cheers > > Dominic > Congrats on your green belt. As far as the rumors go - that is just what they are. I spoke with Grand Master Sereff who spoke with Gen. Choi (not any higher in the ITF than that). Just rumors. Regards Robert Martin 4th Dan ITF ------------------------------ From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 09:41:48 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: More Information Bruce writes: <> Your wish is my command :) Legalities of using of an edged tool Using an edged tool has severe ramifications. The worst of these is how the whole usage will be presented to the common person by the prosecuting attorney. That's right ..HOW IT WILL BE PRESENTED TO THE COMMON PERSON! Not who made the knife, not what were the mitigating circumstances, not were you in fear for your life, not where and how did you cut someone, not what type of knife was used...but how all this is presented by an third person to a group of common people with no relationship to the event or to the tool used. Lets look at this and see how a simple case of using an edged tool can become the albatross around your neck. One evening while out and about, you are confronted by several gentlemen who inform you that they don't like your heritage and because of this, they INSIST that you pay them for the insult of your birth. NO you cannot defend your honor NO you cannot defend property such as your money Upon your refusal to comply they start swearing at you and make insulting comments. They then state that they intend to do damage to you, and then stomp what is left for good fun. NO you still can't defend your honor BUT...you might start being intimidated and in fear for your life... With deliberate intent, these gentlemen make it clear that they will NOT let you leave and that as of now your life and well being are in imminent jeopardy... Now you can get READY to defend yourself NO you cannot strike first just because they say they are going to harm you NO you still can't defend your honor They enter your space with INTENT....the attack is imminent. OK you can NOW defend yourself.... WHY?? You obviously cannot leave nor escape You are outnumbered- disparity of force You have perceived the intent to do you bodily harm and that harm is imminent. You are in FEAR for your life... So you defend yourself with an edged tool and you do so with no restraint.. So its all OK ???? No, not at all. Yes the factors were in your favor, but as is common several factors not mentioned, that most people take as a granted will now come to bite you in your ass. No problem, you used your really cool tactical knife, you know the one. The one that came with the great advertisement telling you that if a Bad guy attacks you, you don't have to worry, You just hack off pieces of their flesh with your PREDATORY V, master killer tactical knife! No problem, you did EXACTLY as the accompanying video told you to do. Plus you have the RIGHT to destroy and kill the overwhelming horde of bad guys anyway. So you carried this Predatory V knife with the intent to do harm to the bad guys,,. in fact you KNEW that if a bad guy attacked you with his friends you would REALLY mess them up.. WHAT you use is very important: the image a knife "projects" can project back on you! The advertising of a knife can come back to haunt you: "Best KILLING KNIFE Around!" No where to go? No way out? IN FEAR FOR YOUR LIFE? In Imminent danger? OK...use the knife You may ONLY use as much force as necessary to protect yourself You may not kill someone with total disregard to the law or its consequences! Your intent with the act of carrying an edged tool IS VERY IMPORTANT! Michael Rowe ------------------------------ From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 09:42:12 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Principles for Combat I couldn't help but post this one as well :) PRINCIPLE Basic laws of motion, function or form: unchanging, immutable Principles such as form follows function: OPEN-CLOSE Mankind has fought thousands of wars, millions of personal conflicts and never have two instances been the same. Therefore that variable IS the constant and it is the first principle of combat: Combat itself is mutable and cannot be contained or structured. With this first principle of combat established, the way one teaches or learns takes on new meaning. Since the principle is one of constant change then one cannot learn set responses to a combative situation. The response most likely will not match the situation, which in combat could lead to serious problems such as death. This gives rise to the second principle of combat: One cannot learn a pre-recorded response to a spontaneous situation. Human combat involves actual human bodies. Direct confrontation between people on a physical level. Human bodies are built that form follows function. A human body is a wonder of construction able to do many tasks as long as it conforms to our actual structure and form. Humans are bound by this structural restriction. For example we cannot look directly behind us, our arms cross over our bodies in front, not behind, our legs hinge and bend one way. The list of what we cannot do is long but what is amazing is what we are capable of. This gives us the third principle of combat: Human combative actions and reactions must be within the bounds of actual - natural physical response. Combat is very stressful, as is any confrontation. The human mind and body prepare for this by shutting down unessential parts and honing in on self- preservation skills. These skills are at the instinct level. They are referred to as gross motor skills while the higher functions the body shuts down are called fine motor skills. This gives the fourth principle of combat: Combat must be simple With these principles to guide one, learning combative arts takes on new meaning. To learn about combat yet to violate these principles gives rise to unnatural conflict. The conflict is that naturally we want to respond in one mode but are taught to or forced to respond in another, a pre-conceived mode. Humans have an inborn natural response that can be honed for combative response or can be shaped into an artificial copy of those that teach them. Learning must echo the natural response and ignore the ego of creating another in ones image. This is where by teaching, the teacher gains understanding of these principles, which then can be taught to the students. Awareness must come to first to those that are teaching. It is part of the learning curve. Again to state the obvious: learning must be simple. It must be based on simple principles. Easy to learn, easy to use, easy to teach. CONCEPTS Conceptual motions or ways to use the principle. Labels such as Sinawalli. Hubud, Redonda, are ways of labeling concepts of motion to show specific weaving concepts of OPEN-CLOSE. How to use the striking motion Is the motion full stemmed, shortened arc, in and out, curving, glancing: following the idea of How to deliver a blow, the conceptual motion of a specific type of striking. CONCEPTUAL USAGE Within each conceptual motion is an actual usage. Such as the tools themselves. Each tool may use the same motion but within that motion is the actual "HOW a tool is used" which refers to Conceptual usage. There are three types of USAGE: Empty Hand, Percussive and Edged. The three are not interchangeable. HOW to Strike, Hit or Cut Use of the actual striking: Cross, Hook, in and Back( Wetik), full swing (Labtik), snapping ( Abanico), slicing, hacking, tip rip...etc. The tool changes the actual usage: Percussive tools hit, Edged tools slice (matter separators), Hands grab, hit or deflect-touch. APPLICATION: Applied Usage The act of actually using the Conceptual motion & usage within the context of reality or actual combat. Specific ways to apply the Concepts to an actual event or happening. ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 09:27:36 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Self-promotion Dear Dana: Holy Smokes, Buddy. You managed to hit quite a few sore spots in a very small space! Perhaps it is better that a TKD/TSD person answer some of your questions, however, I can reliably address on of the issues that is very important for the Hapkido community. “…3. In all this time in a discussion of Hapkido, has anyone offered proof that GM YS Choi actually "trained" in Japan. Has anyone shown, besides questionable ethnographic reference, actual links to Hapkidoish post-1940s, 50s, 60's & 70's arts to indigenous Korean ones other than Tae Kyon? …” I am not sure what your asking for when you use the word “proof” but I can tell you the following. Up until about a month ago I would have called B******T on the whole issue of GM YS Choi and his training in Japan. Certainly I had not been able to uncover any evidence to support such things. About a month ago I came into possession of a copy of the teachers’ certificate of Jang, In Mok. Originally people had thought this to be simply a participation certificate attesting to GM Jangs’ participation in a Daito-ryu seminar given by a student of OS Takeda. Along with the certificate is a photo of GM Jang and his teacher as well as the individual who developed Hakko-ryu ji-jitsu (sorry the name escapes me). I took the liberty of sharing this certificate with the folks at AIKIDO JOURNAL and they were kind enough to have it verified as an authentic teaching certificate dated in August of 1943 just after OS Takedas’ death. Now— What can all of this mean? Point One: Yes, Virginia, Koreans really, really DID study Daito-ryu aikijujitsu. Point Two: Yes, it was really possible for an individual to earn and receive a teaching certificate as a Korean national from a Japanese teacher despite the spirit of the WW II times. Point Three: Yes, it is then possible that GM Chois’ report of having earned a teaching certificate (“mastered”) for Daito-ryu carries new credence. Point Four: GM Myung Jae-nams” efforts to related Hapkido practice to that of Aikido had better underpinnings than people might have allowed at the time. Point Five: The curricular and biomechanical interfacing of emptyhand and weaponed techniques as postulated in traditional Hapkido is reflected and affirmed in the traditions and practices of Daito-ryu and vice versa. My original intent was to publish an article to reveal this material. I have since been asked not publish this material for fear that by publicizing GM Jang’s certificate, the greater efforts of GM Choi might fall under a pall. Apparently GM Jang is held in a lesser position than is the memory of GM Choi in Korea. At any rate I owe the individual who provided this information and documentation my respect and defer to his wishes. All the same, I look forward to the time when we can get this information out before the Hapkido population for the recognition it deserves. As far as your question of links to pre-WWII indigenous fighting arts in Korea, I would once again direct you attention to Dr Yangs’ material on Chin-Na and ask that you examine the biomechanics of these techniques with those practiced by Both Japanese and Korean MA. Once again, I would probably need an operational definition of “proof”. If you are looking for a smoking gun in the form of a patrilinear tradition replete with successions of GM-s, commercial schools, and documentation, you are asking the wrong culture. Contrary to what most would like us to believe such is not and has not been the tradition of the Korean arts. Does it make any difference? Apparently more to we status-conscious Americans than anybody else. There seems to be much to indicate that Koreans as a people are willing to training their whole lives to learn the art and are only passing-aware of rank. Such things only seem to have gotten a lot of play with those individuals who received “airline” promotions on their way to open a chain of schools here in the States. “…5. If you follow a given standard in a given organization and receive rank, isn't that "legitimate" in that organization? Of course, what is the parity in the bigger picture of arts using the same name and isn't the reason they don't all agree the reason often for different organizations?…” In a word, “no.” The reason there are so many organizations is that after a few, or many years, these “highly evolved” and “well-trained” GM-s for all their technical skill can’t put the good of the art above their desire for recognition and commercial success. They want the money from membership coming to them and they want the deference paid to them whether they have it coming or not. They would rather be large fish in their tiny organizational ponds, than an average fish in a large pond with other average fish. I really wish that there WAS “parity in the bigger picture”. But the fact is that these pseudo GM-s are supported by groups of pseudo-practitioners to form a kind of Mutual Admiration Society. The GM-s sell rank to the pratitioners and don’t do much in the way of accountability (testing). In turn the practitioners keep coming back to the pseudo-GM-s because they are a sure source of crappy certification which these practitioners can pass off as suggesting that they know a higher quality art than they actually do. Its not Martial Art. It’s Martial Commerce. Sorry, Dana. I got going here, and didn’t realize how long this had gotten. Let me cut this off here. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Tim Moriarty Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 08:19:51 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Broken Hand I've just broken my carpal navicular bone in my hand while training and I'm being told that it is the slowest healing bone in the hand. Has anybody had a similar break? And if so, what was your recovery time and how did it impact your training? Any secrets to a speedier recovery from a broken hand? Thanks, Tim ------------------------------ From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 12:17:46 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #83 << I've seen some discussion on this list and another about martial artists who with not a vast amount of experience that either split off from their parent organization or start their own Kwan and become grandmaster. How do yall really feel about these guys? Would you ever join their organizations? >> I have encountered high ranked MA practitioners that have "promoted themselves." My first experience w/ Martial Arts was with one such instructor. He apparently NEVER made it to 1st Dan under any master (Rumor-mill), but is suddenly a MASTER himself! Needless to say, he almost destroyed my idealism of the art... First and foremost, my current (and respectable) Master, CS Kim, has said, "You respect the man, not the belt. It is the man who makes the belt. The belt does not make the man." When I started over again a few years ago, I had difficulty seeing BB children as "seniors." I have, however, gained a deep appreciation for those (especially children) who have earned their degree through perseverance and great effort over time. Sometimes even arrogant (we all know the type) practitioners earn my respect through my awareness of their dedication. Self-promotion seems to be the direct inverse of MA ethics. I think it is dishonorable. - -Cheree ------------------------------ From: "Alagna, Steven M" Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 10:41:24 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Retribution Bruce said: >Then there is the matter of retribution. To damage a member of a group supposes that one of that individuals' loyal compatriots may easily take up the "challenge" and ambush the MA as an act of revenge. As warriors in training are we prepared to accept and deal with this eventuality? It is not for no reason that warriors of old are characterized as light sleepers and a shade hair-triggered. Still, I don't know many of our modern practitioners who are ready to cash such a check with their life-styles, no matter how sincerely they write said check on the clear slate of their minds in the ink of emotion.> Well said Bruce. I live in a nice neighborhood but have this loser, known drug dealer, thief living across the street that I've had several confrontations with and he often has several scum buddies hanging around also. He lives with his mother and have heard that he's now a snitch for the police. I've often wondered though if this individual made a threatening move toward me during one of our verbal confrontations and I took this guy down/knocked him out whatever... this guy still lives across the street and can potentially threaten my wife or 3 young children at will while I'm at work or have his buddies do the same. I've had these verbal confrontations as he and his buddies were doing things that I thought could put my children in danger and calling the cops only seems to make things worse making him angrier. I've told my wife that it is better to try to talk to this individual rather than taking a bat to his skull. Now, I'm not against calling the police if his actions are illegal. Just food for thought. Any comments or similar situations?? Steven M. Alagna Senior Packaging Engineer, Product Engineering, Reseller Products Group Intel Corporation DuPont, WA Phone: (253) 371-9296 Pager: (253) 687-2305 ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 11:45:16 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #85 ******************************* It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.