From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #86 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 6 Feb 2001 Vol 08 : Num 086 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #85 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #85 the_dojang: Personal reactions to ones own blood the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #85 the_dojang: Re: Self-made GM-s the_dojang: Re: Broken Hand the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #84 the_dojang: RE: Different replies the_dojang: Re: Congrats on the Green Belt the_dojang: Re: Intensity the_dojang: RE: Michael's posts and retribution the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. 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To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 14:29:53 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #85 << Regards Robert Martin 4th Dan ITF >> ITF...is that Intenational Tang Soo Do Federation or Tae Kwon Do? ------------------------------ From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 14:34:22 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #85 I understand the word RYU to mean "one," but is this translation meant to represent entity or number? - -Cheree ------------------------------ From: Martin Price Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 11:32:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Personal reactions to ones own blood All, I have seen a great deal of discussion in regards to being cut/not being cut during a fight/self defense situation. Every individual reacts differently. I do not even notice an injury until after the confrontation is over. I have never been up against a knife, but in one instance I was attacked with a bed slat! When he swung it I blocked it with an outside block and took them out with a straight right to the chest, it took them down and they decided enough of this and took off. Did it hurt when I blocked it? No I felt absolutely nothing, it was a survival situation and I was acting off pure adrenilan and reflex. I have had my nose splattered and the blood flew, but once again for some reason I did not know this until it was all over. Every time I have been in a fight I have never noticed any pain or blood until it was over. There are a lot of people who fit in this catagory. There are some people that are fine with getting hit, but when it comes to blood (their own) they lose it. They either go into the fluffy mode or they panic and forget everything they have learned. There are some who do not do well until they do get hurt and then it is like someone woke them up and they rise to the occasion. Everyone is different and reacts to an attack differently and reacts to an injury differently. To tell someone that they will likely get cut in a knife attack is reality, just like telling someone if they get attacked barehanded they should expect to get hit. This does not mean they will get cut or hit every time, but odds are they will. In real life attacks even when you win a confrontation you still get injured, even if it is just your forearms from blocking or your hands from not hitting properly. Everyone should be made aware that when you are attacked the likely hood of you being injured is high, all of our training is to learn to avoid confrontation if possible, but if it can not be avoided to allow us to walk/run away with our lifes. Yours in TKD Martin one of the Gray Beards. ___________________________________________________ GO.com Mail Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 13:21:00 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #85 Dear Steven: "...this guy still lives across the street and can potentially threaten my wife or 3 young children at will while I'm at work or have his buddies do the same. I've had these verbal confrontations as he and his buddies were doing things that I thought could put my children in danger and calling the cops only seems to make things worse making him angrier. I've told my wife that it is better to try to talk to this individual rather than taking a bat to his skull. Now, I'm not against calling the police if his actions are illegal. Just food for thought. Any comments or similar situations?? ..." Now, THIS, THIS is where your MA training comes in. Not so damn easy is it? Its frustrating, and scary and infuriating. Welcome to the world of the warrior. Somebody once said that "to act when it is time to act is easy. Not to act when it is time not to act is difficult." You just know that dirtbag deserves some serious damage, but "keeping your sword sheathed" makes sure you can work each day and support your family, the scum are not anagonized into barging into your house while you are gone, and there can be no association with you when the Wheel of Life turns as it must and probably rolls over this bozo's head. Listen to your wife-- she is wise for her time. Wait and see if El Scumo doesn't engineer his own distrcution with absolutely no help from you. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 13:37:22 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Self-made GM-s Dear Cheree: "...First and foremost, my current (and respectable) Master, CS Kim, has said, "You respect the man, not the belt. It is the man who makes the belt. The belt does not make the man." When I started over again a few years ago, I had difficulty seeing BB children as "seniors." I have, however, gained a deep appreciation for those (especially children) who have earned their degree through perseverance and great effort over time. Sometimes even arrogant (we all know the type) practitioners earn my respect through my awareness of their dedication. Self-promotion seems to be the direct inverse of MA ethics. I think it is dishonorable....." I saw your earlier comment about the Korean word for "Sai". While I have heard the the Koreans also carried an iron truncheon much like the Japanese policemen of old, the term "juk-to" isn't a term I think was used to identify this. In Kumdo we use this term to identify a bamboo sword and a "muk guem" to identify a wooden sword. On the other hand the Korean word for a self-promoted GM is "phoney" but don't expect too many of these folks to come forward and identify themselves. I can't say that I agree entirely with Master CS Kim, though I understand what he is saying about respecting the man rather than the belt. This position presupposes that such a person (OR his belt) is worthy of such respect, and therein lies the rub. Were such a person worthy of the rank he gives himself, he wouldn't be giving himself said rank, would he? Have you noticed that this Net isn't exactly exploding with contributions from these self-made GM-s? They know who they are and how they got their rank and I guarentee you that the light of day would be strong enough to bleach the color of those belts right back to their true level of competence. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Jerry Hinkle Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 14:04:29 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Broken Hand Clipped: I've just broken my carpal navicular bone in my hand while training and I'm being told that it is the slowest healing bone in the hand. Has anybody had a similar break? And if so, what was your recovery time and how did it impact your training? Any secrets to a speedier recovery from a broken hand? End Clip. I broke the navicula in my left wrist due to a motorcycle accident. This was 1981, I believe. They put me in a cast and my hand was formed like I was holding an orange. I was informed that this was a slow healing bone because of lack of blood flow to this area. The navicula is the long bone that controls the thumb and one of the 9 small bones of the wrist. At the time I was a yellow belt, and I continued to train with padding over my cast. I was in the cast for 5 weeks, and got it off just before testing for green. It rebroke during the test and I was in a cast for another 5 weeks. After that I was very careful. It healed but continued to bother me for a couple of years, especially with flexibility. So my advise, is to take it very gingerly with this particular break. I've broken numerous bones, and this was the smallest but hardest healing one of them all. After you get the cast off, take it real easy for at least another two months. Wear a splint brace. Then start working on flexibility but watch the sharp strikes even after that. If you are doing Hapkido, be really careful. I don't mean to sound like doom and gloom, but this can be a hard one to heal, at least for me. Jerry. ------------------------------ From: Daremo and Kitsune Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 14:30:45 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #84 Well, Dana and the list, for my two cents... 1) I personally appreciate when someone admits (acknowledges) their training lineage even after they have broken away. 2) and when they choose not to "claim" a rank. An example of this is the Chief Instructor of my original Taekwondo organization. Mr. Tom Sullivan, founder of Karate North (Duluth, MN) left the Karate Center in Minneapolis after his instructor Master Jun Sun "Jay" Hyon retired (in 1973 or 1974) and left the school to Song Moo Kwan founder, Grandmaster Byung Jick Ro. When he left, he had been awarded 5th Dan (but apparently not the title "Master" since 5th Dan with Grandmaster Ro is "Master" level). Since then, if you ask him about rank, he'll state he's a 5th Dan. This is now 26 years later. Mr. Sullivan has gone on to create one of the largest organizations in the Midwest with, when last I heard a couple years ago, 75 affiliated schools and over 1,000 members. Does this mean that he could not be a "Grandmaster?" I believe he could. Will he "claim" it? Probably not. >From: "Dana Vaillancourt" >Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 13:58:11 >Subject: the_dojang: Re: Self Promotion > >Hey Mac. > >Let's see, do I see a trap here!? Quick history lesson [let me know if I'm >wrong]and a couple of honest questions: > >1. All of the early Kwans were started by individuals with 3rd dans or less >in Shotokan, or, no verifiable martial arts training (under an instructor) >at all. > >2. In many of the Kwans and the WTF, you can get your 1st dan in 1.5 years. >Of course, "I trained 8 days a week and 12 hours per day in Korea!" > >3. In all this time in a discussion of Hapkido, has anyone offered proof >that GM YS Choi actually "trained" in Japan. Has anyone shown, besides >questionable ethnographic reference, actual links to Hapkidoish post-1940s, >50s, 60's & 70's arts to indigenous Korean ones other than Tae Kyon? > >4. Does the fact whether some people consider these individuals >"legitimate" matter to them or the arts they taught and propagated at all? > >5. If you follow a given standard in a given organization and receive rank, >isn't that "legitimate" in that organization? Of course, what is the parity >in the bigger picture of arts using the same name and isn't the reason they >don't all agree the reason often for different organizations? > >5. In regards to Mac's "Quarter Century milestone," Congrats Mac! And to >those of you who meet Mac at Master West's seminar, don't be lulled in for a >minute!! Robert Frankovich Tiger Consulting Senior Trainer 4th Dan AAU Taekwondo 4th Dan Song Moo Kwan Taekwondo 2nd Dan Seidokan Aikido www.tigerconsulting.org "There's more to balance than not falling over." Michael Angier ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 14:47:32 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Different replies Ray answered: "Sorry, not sure I follow... Do Eskrimadors visualize getting cut and how they will react? " I reply: Sorry I wasn't more clear. Actually I wondered if any of the Eskrimadores every addressed the point of whether or not expecting to be cut or believing that you would be cut in a knife fight might in some way increase the chances of the person actually being cut. But I gather from your post that they are not concerned with esoterics, just technique. By the way I really liked the double L story. I would like to try the art. Unfortunately, not any teachers in my neck of the woods. Alain you used the term "hollowing" in writing about your drills practice with Marc McYoung. I'm not familiar with that term. Could you describe it for me. Otherwise the drills you were writing about sound similar to some I use. Number 1 order of business is to get your body out of the line of attack. And this can be unbelievably hard with someone who is determined to cut you wherever they can. Alain wrote: "Besides this being a good drill for practicing to get out of the way, it also showed that someone with no training at all will still get cuts in and can be dangerous with a knife. Marc didn't want me thinking that I'd get cut by him because he was experienced with a knife, but that I could get cut by anyone. Something I've said here, so don't know why people think I was saying you "Won't" get cut and thinking I think I'm superman or something." I reply: From my prespective, I think we are not that far apart. I don't train to get cut either. But I believe that you have to drum it into a student's head so that they come to terms with the high probability that they will be cut in a knife fight. A few days ago I told about seeing a technically good bb get soundly beat, because he was not prepared mentally to deal with being hit hard. He just did not expect anyone to ever hit him hard. Same thing. I run into this all the time with students. The first time I put them in a free style defense situation (armed or unarmed), they invariablly try to free-spar the attacker. Bruce wrote: "We don't teach our students that they will be cut in a knife fight for the same reason most students are not taught that they will be hit or kicked in a fist fight or that despite years of training, on any given day, anyone can lose a fight and be seriously injured." Bruce, I think if we don't do this, we fail our students. Problem is, a lot of students are not willing to pay the price to learn it. In my opinion, this is not something you learn in no contact sparring or prepared drills, and certainly not in tournaments of any kind. Dana wrote: "4. Does the fact whether some people consider these individuals "legitimate" matter to them or the arts they taught and propagated at all? 5. If you follow a given standard in a given organization and receive rank, isn't that "legitimate" in that organization? Of course, what is the parity in the bigger picture of arts using the same name and isn't the reason they don't all agree the reason often for different organizations?" Dana, i agree with most of what you are saying, however I still have a problem with a first degree black belt founding his own school and system. There are a lot of things that go into the equation other than Mr. X can do a great jump spinning crescent kick. In essence, I believe these folks are doing the martial arts in general a disservice. ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 15:54:42 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Congrats on the Green Belt In a message dated 2/6/2001 6:49:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I would just mention that I passed my green belt tonight at almost 37. It went very well, even though two injuries are still hanging on me ... >> Congratulations, Dominic ! Did you receive the injuries during the test or did you test even tho you had two injuries? Illona ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 16:00:14 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Intensity In a message dated 2/6/2001 6:49:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Point is do not expect your assailant to carry a brand new stainless steel knifemakers guild model - screw drivers etc abound. >> In the last karate school I was in ... there was on black belt teen in there that had been stabbed 8 times with a screwdriver when he attempted to stop someone from stealing his van. The lesson he learned ? Let them take the vehicle next time ... and his intensity in his training went up because he said he never wanted to be attacked like that again. He wanted to be ready. Well, if he wasn't there for the attack ... then that was the perfect defense for himself. Getting away and just letting them steal the car. So the intensity of his training always confused me ... I have never been stabbed or seriously wounded when attacked (by a weapon) so was his working out so hard a replacement for not talking about it to anyone ? Comments ? Illona ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 15:47:22 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Michael's posts and retribution Michael, great post on how the carrying and use of a knife, or other weapon for that matter can be used against you. It is sometimes easy to use our own viewpoint and ignore how the situation could be construed. Steven, you are in a really tough spot. I don't know that I have any immediate advice for you other than you must continue to be absolutely cool headed and consider the ramifications of your every action. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 14:29:38 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #86 ******************************* It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.