From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #88 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 7 Feb 2001 Vol 08 : Num 088 In this issue: the_dojang: Past training the_dojang: Navicula the_dojang: Re: Self-promotion the_dojang: Navicula + the_dojang: More on "expecting" the_dojang: hollowing Re: the_dojang: hollowing Re: the_dojang: More on "expecting" the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Andrew Pratt Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 10:53:41 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: Past training Dana wrote in part: >> 2. In many of the Kwans and the WTF, you can get your 1st dan in 1.5 years. Of course, "I trained 8 days a week and 12 hours per day in Korea!" << Only 12 hours per day? Slackers. I'm waiting for Professor b to confirm that in his day it used to be at least 25 hours, and that was just for one stance! Andrew ------------------------------ From: "K T" Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 13:33:07 +1100 Subject: the_dojang: Navicula I shattered both my wrists (at the same time) playing basketball. I was told that the navicula was one of (the many) bones that I had damaged. Six weeks in external fixators. Six weeks of intensive physio. (Two weeks of dismantling and reassembling an old alarm clock to improve lost movement in the fingers.) 3 months weight bearing exercises. It was a good six months after that before the damn things stopped hurting. I'll keep comments in line with the other contributors in this forum. Slowly and gently. Fingers and wrists are bones that don't take kindly to too many injuries. Wishing you a rapid and complete recovery. Regards, Noel _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ From: "Dana Vaillancourt" Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 02:35:55 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Self-promotion Bruce. Thanks! Loved your response! Sorry if I pushed the wrong button's [well, kind'a], but it never fails to amaze me how we've all been so firmly indoctrinated into the need for external "legitimacy." The founders worked hard, but were hardly paragons of legitimacy themselves. I'm sure some never cared. Probably, "I have something to teach if you'd care to learn." At what point did legitimacy of "Rank" come up? It had always seemed more family/individual orientated before. I suppose we have Judo and Shotokan to thank for the need to be ranked and placed in a spot in a system. Bruce:>I am not sure what your asking for when you use the word “proof” but I can tell you the following. Up until about a month ago I would have called B******T on the whole issue of GM YS Choi and his training in Japan. Certainly I had not been able to uncover any evidence to support such things. About a month ago I came into possession of a copy of the teachers’ certificate of Jang, In Mok. Originally people had thought this to be simply a participation certificate attesting to GM Jangs’ participation in a Daito-ryu seminar given by a student of OS Takeda. Along with the certificate is a photo of GM Jang and his teacher as well as the individual who developed Hakko-ryu ji-jitsu (sorry the name escapes me). I took the liberty of sharing this certificate with the folks at AIKIDO JOURNAL and they were kind enough to have it verified as an authentic teaching certificate dated in August of 1943 just after OS Takedas’ death. > >Now— > >What can all of this mean? > >Point One: Yes, Virginia, Koreans really, really DID study Daito-ryu >aikijujitsu. > >Point Two: Yes, it was really possible for an individual to earn and >receive a teaching certificate as a Korean national from a Japanese teacher >despite the spirit of the WW II times. > >Point Three: Yes, it is then possible that GM Chois’ report of having >earned a teaching certificate (“mastered”) for Daito-ryu carries new >credence. > >Point Four: GM Myung Jae-nams” efforts to related Hapkido practice to that >of Aikido had better underpinnings than people might have allowed at the >time. > >Point Five: The curricular and biomechanical interfacing of emptyhand and >weaponed techniques as postulated in traditional Hapkido is reflected and >affirmed in the traditions and practices of Daito-ryu and vice versa. Me: I understand what you say Bruce and I'm calling no one a liar, especially not GM Choi. Your information, however, may carry credence on this type of certification being given out to Korean nationals, but does not really document YS Choi's activities. Please understand, I'm not making any value statement here at all, just a comment. Bruce: As far as your question of links to pre-WWII indigenous fighting arts in Korea, I would once again direct you attention to Dr Yangs’ material on Chin-Na and ask that you examine the biomechanics of these techniques with those practiced by Both Japanese and Korean MA. Once again, I would probably need an operational definition of “proof”. If you are looking for a smoking gun in the form of a patrilinear tradition replete with successions of GM-s, commercial schools, and documentation, you are asking the wrong culture. Contrary to what most would like us to believe such is not and has not been the tradition of the Korean arts. Does it make any difference? Apparently more to we status-conscious Americans than anybody else. There seems to be much to indicate that Koreans as a people are willing to training their whole lives to learn the art and are only passing-aware of rank. Such things only seem to have gotten a lot of play with those individuals who received “airline” promotion! >s on their way to open a chain of schools here in the States. Me: While I am not familiar with the history of Chin-Na, beyond it being a Chinese art similar to locking and pressure points in Hapkido, how does these similarities with Chinese and Japanese arts infer Hapkido's technical or philosophical descent from indigenous Korean arts? The Japanese relationship is obvious, direct relationships to China less so. Of course, boundaries moved a lot historically. Again, no axe to grind, just searching for tangible answers like you! >Bruce: >The reason there are so many organizations is that after a few, or >many years, these “highly evolved” and “well-trained” GM-s for all their >technical skill can’t put the good of the art above their desire for >recognition and commercial success. They want the money from membership >coming to them and they want the deference paid to them whether they have >it coming or not. They would rather be large fish in their tiny >organizational ponds, than an average fish in a large pond with other >average fish. I really wish that there WAS “parity in the bigger picture”. >But the fact is that these pseudo GM-s are supported by groups of >pseudo-practitioners to form a kind of Mutual Admiration Society. The GM-s >sell rank to the practitioners and don’t do much in the way of >accountability (testing). In turn the practitioners keep coming back to the >pseudo-GM-s because they are a sure source of crappy certification which >these practitioners can pass off as suggesting that they know a higher qua! >lity art than they actually do. Its not Martial Art. It’s Martial Commerce. ME: Aw Bruce! Your being just a tad to cynical here! Egos play a role in leaving instructor's and forming new organizations, but like Mac recently said [and I paraphrase], "How long do you live with your parents?" There also could be a time to grow and move on and the motivation may have been just to learn more or teach in a different way. Bruce:>Sorry, Dana. I got going here, and didn’t realize how long this had gotten. Let me cut this off here. It's ok Bruce, like I said, I enjoyed it! Dana > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "K T" Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 13:42:51 +1100 Subject: the_dojang: Navicula + Sorry Dominic Forgot to add in my other post, the 6 months of gingered pain occurred whilst trying to do push ups. Any push up. Even a flat handed on a 45 degree slope made me wince. Once again ... be careful but speedy recovery in returning to heavy hand contact. Regards, Noel _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 22:12:27 EST Subject: the_dojang: More on "expecting" Thanks for all of the comments this thread had elicited. Some have been very insightful, and the discussion is good for all of us. Some seem to think that I have been stating a person “won’t” get cut in an altercation involving knives. Please read what I have been writing, I never said any such thing. The thing I stated is that I don’t like the teaching of “expecting” to get cut in a knife fight. As I stated, this goes back to the old principle of getting what you think about, if you go into the fight expecting it, you are more apt to have it happen. I understand the different philosophy of some others here and elsewhere, but I disagree, and that is fine. Some good points have been made, and many knowledgeable people do teach the “Expect to get cut” philosophy. Note, it was not me, but Bob Kasper who said “expecting to get cut” is ridiculous. It was Jim Grover who followed Kasper in saying it is ridiculous to teach. For those who don’t know, Kasper is the executive director of the Gung-Ho Chuan Association and editor for Tactical Knives magazine. He writes a column (I think STREET SMARTS) in that magazine. Grover is a noted security specialist and writes the PERSONAL SECURITY column in Guns & Ammo magazine. Both people who have been there and done that, and focus on reality training with a self-defense focus. (Rather than the alternate focuses that many MA schools emphasize.) Marc MacYoung also disagrees with this teaching. For those who don’t know, Marc is the author of 10 books on self-defense, one on knife fighting, and five videos, two of them on knife fighting. (He’s also a friend and wrote the forward for my first book) Here is a bit that Marc has said about the expecting philosophy, “the "because they are expecting to get cut, they charge in. Not necessarily to attack, but in preparation of an attack. While they are getting in position to attack, they are getting the shit slashed out of them. Which makes it really ugly if all goes awry by their opponent not cooperating with their plans. In the mean time, they are slashed and bleeding. But that's okay because they expected to get cut...” Loren Christensen also does not teach this. For those that don’t know Loren, he is retired from the Portland PD and has authored some 17 books on MA, self-defense, and law related subjects. His “Fighters Fact Book” released a year ago is doing well with Turtle Press. (He has a book coming out this year that I supplied some pics and drills for) In “Far Beyond Defensive Tactics” Loren states, “Statistics say that there is a one-in-three chance you will get cut when defending against a blade.” I haven’t had a chance yet to talk to Loren about where this number comes from, but since I know of a lot of knife situations where the person didn’t get cut, this number sounds more accurate than “You WILL get cut.” Okay, so we are not teaching to “Expect” to get cut. This is the main reason why I don’t teach that: I don’t want a person going into it with the thought, “I’m going to get cut,” “I’m expecting it,” etc. I want them to go into it thinking, “I have to avoid the blade at all costs.” However, here is the big difference. While not teaching to “expect” to get cut, I teach to “Accept” that there is a very probable chance you will get cut. Mentally, this is different. I’m not “Expecting” it, which can lead to getting cut, because what we think about will happen. (Like racecar driving, you lose control and look at and think about the wall, what do you hit, THE WALL) But I do “Accept” that there is a likely chance I will get cut even though I am doing everything I possibly can to avoid the slicing and dicing that is going on. And yes, if it comes down to getting cut on the outside of the arm vs. getting stabbed, I would attempt to take the cut on the arm to avoid the other. (But I’d be doing my best to get my body out of the way in case the arm block failed) Rather than take any cut, I rather get out of the way and take none Ever see what a good blade can do to flesh? One good slash with a Cold Steel Tanto (or many other blades) can almost take your arm off. By “accepting” and “kno wing” you may be cut in a knife altercation, I think you can have the same mentality that will get you through, without the “expectation” that may lead to getting what you “expect.” All survival training (Note survival, not sport, exercise or family fun), will have a focus on doing what you have to to survive This includes fighting through pain, injuries and such if they happen. And if you are in a serious encounter, it probably will happen. Whether a serious fight, knife fight, or whatever. You need the drive to survive, and you do what you have to. By accepting that this may happen, and preparing for if it does, I feel you can be ready. I also feel this is a better mindset than going into it with an expectation of getting cut or hurt. I have no misconceptions about being superman, or knowing techniques that are sure fire and will keep you from being cut 100% of the time. There aren’t any. And a cut by an experienced knife fighter and a cut by some bozo just flailing around with a blade can both be as serious, can both take your life. ANY person, with ANY blade is dangerous. The untrained person with a knife is also a serious threat, and anyone can do a lot of carnage with a blade easily and quickly. That is what makes running or grabbing a chair so desirable. Thank you to all that added to this thread. It has been interesting and I hope beneficial to people reading and people contributing. I hope this post has clarified some of why I don’t care for the “Expecting” philosophy. I respect Ray and his instructors that teach otherwise, just as I respect others who teach the same. There is more than one philosophy, and I think we agree on more than we disagree on. We are just coming at it from different angles. In closing, I hope no one reading this ever has to actually face the horrors of a knife attack, Yours in Training, Alain Burrese ------------------------------ From: "Mac" Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 22:03:20 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: hollowing <> Uh-hum! I've found that the older you get, the more difficult it is to "hollow" the midsection ;-) It seems to work more in the reverse for me.... Guess I better stay out of knife fights. (stomach) Getting in the Way, Mac PS: Patrick, hope you didn't mind me stealing your line, just seemed appropriate at the time :-) ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 20:55:43 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: hollowing > < hollowing > out your body. Gets your midsection out of the line of a slash toward that > area. I'm sure you probably do this too, just call is something different. > Alain >> > > Uh-hum! I've found that the older you get, the more difficult it is to > "hollow" the midsection ;-) It seems to work more in the reverse for me.... > Guess I better stay out of knife fights. > > (stomach) Getting in the Way, > Mac I resemble that remark... :) wrt the hollowing movement, a lot also has to do with the arms, actually more the forearms. As a reactive drill (your arms are down my your side) as you blade your body by (e.g.) stepping back with the right foot while pivoting on your left you can also then use your arm (left arm/forearm in this example) in kind of a loose swinging motion to push the attacking arm/blade further away from your midsection. An interesting drill to try... keeping your arms down by your sides, or even keeping the hands together behind your back, and having your partner attack you with straight thrusts of the blade toward your belly. [difficult to explain well in ascii] Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 22:01:42 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: More on "expecting" > The thing I stated is that I don’t like the teaching of “expecting” to get > cut in a knife fight. As I stated, this goes back to the old principle of > getting what you think about, if you go into the fight expecting it, you are > more apt to have it happen. And I guess this is what I just don't follow. Again I think it smacks of the criticism of Mas Ayoob and his teachings at the Lethal Force Institute. And I admit he is not without a few high profile critics (which permits an ongoing series of magazine articles and books). But they seem to follow a similar approach in their logic, which as you can tell by now :), doesn't seem logical at all to me. It seems difficult to argue against full disclosure. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 22:07:30 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #88 ******************************* It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.