From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #89 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 7 Feb 2001 Vol 08 : Num 089 In this issue: the_dojang: Kalaripayattu-the forerunner of Asian martial arts? the_dojang: Re: Ray's Comments on Arnis/Eskrima the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #88 the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #86 the_dojang: RE:Self-promotion the_dojang: Intensity the_dojang: RE:Jerry's Contact Lesson the_dojang: Knife defense the_dojang: RE: Eskrima Tournament Re: the_dojang: RE: Eskrima Tournament the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 23:13:11 PST Subject: the_dojang: Kalaripayattu-the forerunner of Asian martial arts? Forwarding. FYI... Ray ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Ray, I am sure that with your deep interest in the martial arts you would find my historical novel Without a City Wall very interesting. Without a City Wall is set in 16th century Europe and Kerala and along with other very interesting episodes covers the ancient martial art form of Kalaripayattu. Kalaripayattu is believed to be the forerunner of all the eastern martial art forms. Bodhidharma (448-527AD) the Buddhist monk from whose teachings both karate and the Chinese martial arts claim descent, and who is credited with setting up the school of martial arts at the famous Shaolin Temple, was an Indian princling who went to China in the 6th century to preacch the Buddhist doctrine. With kalaripayattu being the only martial art form in the length and breadth of India that bears any semblance to the present day Eastern martial art forms. Bodhidharma could only have learnt these arts from the kalaris (as the martial academies of Kerala are called). Kerala, a tiny state on the SW coast of Inda was until the 12th century a Buddhist stronghold. This theory is now being accepted in many quarters. Although during the British rule in Kerala, the kalaris lost much of their former importance, there are even today several kalaris in Kerala where there is active practice of Kalaripayattu both as a form of self defence and for the healing techniques, peculiar to the kalaris, that have developed over the centuries. Without a City Wall also describes the Mamamkam, a bizarre festival which was held once in 12 years in North Kerala. At the Mamamkam kalari trained fighters could have a go at the ruling monarch, the Zamorin, by fighting their way through a gauntlet of the Zamorin's soldiers. Please visit my website http://www.indiaimprint.com for a synopsis of my novel. With kind regards Thomas Chacko ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 02:25:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Ray's Comments on Arnis/Eskrima Ray Terry noted: Response: Wow, Ray. You hit the proverbial nail on the head ! I had a lesson with GM Canete and his son Edgar last night. I am in Cebu. You have to be here to appreciate exactly what Ray just wrote. You have to understand how the Filipino relationships and villages operate. In just 4 lessons I have been taught the 12 basic vital striking points, shown how to disarm a knife from an attacker, and how to cripple the legs of a dude trying one of the fancy smancy kicks.If you can supplement your training with the techniques learned in Arnis/Escrima you can be a better martial artist. Now, after a few days with GM Canete I asked him how much I owed him for his valuable time. He told me "That is up to you." Of course this is the Filipino response and he knows my in-law's family. But, I have seen it in other situations where I received the same response. Learning how to defend against yourself from knives, sticks, and weapons. Real stuff from people living in an environment different than say Korea. When other Arnis instructors showed up at the house they brought sticks, knives, and a lot of information that they eagerly shared. They did not wait to show me this stuff until I earned an advanced degree or reached 1st Dan level. It is there right away for you to learn and absorb. Interesting experiences to say the least. My only regret is that I did not understand or recognize the importance of this important martial art several years ago when I was in the Philippines. Cheers, McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 08:06:41 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #88 In a message dated 2/6/01 11:43:16 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << An interesting drill to try... keeping your arms down by your sides, or even keeping the hands together behind your back, and having your partner attack you with straight thrusts of the blade toward your belly. [difficult to explain well in ascii] Ray Terry >> also hands in your pocket. gary New CKC Web Page ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 07:56:06 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #86 Illona wrote: "The lesson he learned ? Let them take the vehicle next time ... and his intensity in his training went up because he said he never wanted to be attacked like that again. He wanted to be ready. Well, if he wasn't there for the attack ... then that was the perfect defense for himself. Getting away and just letting them steal the car. So the intensity of his training always confused me ... I have never been stabbed or seriously wounded when attacked (by a weapon) so was his working out so hard a replacement for not talking about it to anyone ? Comments ?" Illona, I think he really learned two lessons, both of which are very valuable. First, property is not worth getting hurt or killed over, so develop the self-control not to put yourself in that position again. Second, he learned that he wasn't really prepared for an all out fight against someone armed and intent on killing him. So he is trying to make sure he is prepared if it ever happens again. The second case is not necessarily related to just trying to stop someone trying to steal your property. It could happen any time, any place with other motives or no apparent motives that you are aware of. Danny Dunn ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 08:39:00 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE:Self-promotion Dear Dana: Its hard in a venue such as this to know what true effect ones' contributions are having on the other guy. We don't have the luxury of seeing a face or reading body posture. I'm going to ask you to trust me that the energy you picked up on in my response was not a result of your comments but simply my investment in the material itself. Having participated in a couple of nasty e-mail wars on other Nets I work hard to encourage dialogue and exchange of information rather than "proving" or trying to convert a person to a particular way of thinking. You questions are important points that need to be raised repeatedly until their answers carry the same standing as other information in our collective consciousness here in the MA. I hope you keep up the good work! "...Me: I understand what you say Bruce and I'm calling no one a liar, especially not GM Choi. Your information, however, may carry credence on this type of certification being given out to Korean nationals, but does not really document YS Choi's activities..." Yes, what you has written is very true. My prayer is that sometime in the future perhaps I will have an opportunity to publish this material for what it is worth. Right now, the best I can hope for is that it does something to address SOME issues. There are still people who believe that Koreans never studied Japanese arts and if they did study Japanese arts never attained rank or authority in those arts. So far there is no documentation regarding GM Choi (though there are some tantalizing rumors that the Daito-ryu Kodokai has a record of his attendence in training in their rosters. Don't expect these guys to share this information with the world in this lifetime. They are very much a closed system to themselves.) AT least the existence of a legit Teaching Certificate in Daito-ryu by a Korean national who returned to teach the art in Korea addresses this issue. On the other hand human beings are capable of change so perhaps the Kodokai will surprise us one day, yes? "... While I'm not familiar with the history of Chin Na beyond it being a Chinese art similar to locking and pressure points in Hapkido, how does these similarities with Chinese and Japanese arts infer Hapkido's technical or philosophical descent from indigenous Korean arts? The Japanese relationship is obvious, direct relationships to China less so. Of course, boundaries moved a lot historically. Again, no axe to grind, just searching for tangible answers like you!..." I need to take a moment once again and apologize for citing someone without explaining. Dr Jwing-ming Yang is an authority on various Chinese arts and a prolific author on the subject as well as a teacher and the head of his own organization out of the state of New York. I have found his two books on Chin Na to be invaluable in investigating the biomechanics of Korean grappling arts as it interfaces with the Japanese arts. What makes this material so interesting is the many biomechanical similarities between the Chinese applications and executions and those of the Korean arts. While it goes without saying that many of the techniques found in Hapkido have their origins in Daito-ryu, I am finding that the actual execution of the technique is heavily influenced by Chinese art. Two examples are the use of "splitting" (pressure applied at the division of a muscle bundle or ligament) to facilitate a technique. ) and the use of the thumb to actuate a pressure point (nerve center or nerve/blood vessel center) to facilitate a technique through pain compliance. By comparison Daito-ryu tends to place stronger emphasis on misalignment of the joint which can also induce pain-compliance. In the final analysis this becomes a matter of degree. The metaphor I use is the mixing of pigments to produce a particular color. In this case if Chinese arts were yellow and Japanese arts were blue, Korean arts would be shifting shades of green depending on the era. I think the most serious difficulty that most of us have with Korean arts is that we have been spoiled by the Japanese and Chinese traditions so that unless we find that the Korean Martial tradition was spontaneously developed exclusively within their borders by them we discount the integrity of their arts and traditions. The Japanese have exactly the same history of absorbing Martial tradition and technology from the continent but have done a much better job of covering this fact over. "... Aw Bruce! Your being just a tad to cynical here! Egos play a role in leaving instructor's and forming new organizations, but like Mac recently said [and I paraphrase], "How long do you live with your parents?" There also could be a time to grow and move on and the motivation may have been just to learn more or teach in a different way...." I'm afraid you have me here. There are a few places where my cynacism gets the best of me. I would side with Mac regarding kids leaving the nest except that the ones I am referring to seem to be inordinately ungrateful little bastards! There are many ways to leave a parents' house. I think that moving into town and setting up a home while denying any affiliation or association with ones' parent is probably one of the most onerous. I honor the people who have taught me and I take every opportunity to make it known where I got my material from. I don't pretend that I thought it up myself, that this material is original from me, or that I have the right to modify the art simply because I can. Certainly, Dana, egos play a role in this process, but I thought that was what we were here to deal with. How come the ego/tail is still wagging the person/dog? Am I given to believe that loyalty, fraternity, constancy, integrity and tradition have no role in the modern MA? I take the leadership to task quite a bit, but that doesn't mean that I let the membership off the hook either? In those cases where the leadership DOES meet their responsibilities to their followers, who are these followers to open their own arts just because they are not the designated inheritor of the organization? I promised myself that I wouldn't make this one an epistle, but I think I am getting seriously close. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Brian Emery" Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 09:52:08 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Intensity >rom: MissIllona@aol.com >Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 16:00:14 EST >Subject: the_dojang: Re: Intensity >In the last karate school I was in ... there was on black belt teen >in >there that had been stabbed 8 times with a screwdriver when he >attempted >to stop someone from stealing his van. >The lesson he learned ? Let them take the vehicle next time ... and >his >intensity in his training went up because he said he never wanted >to be >attacked like that again. He wanted to be ready. >Well, if he wasn't there for the attack ... then that was the perfect > >defense for himself. Getting away and just letting them steal the >car. >So the intensity of his training always confused me ... I have never >been >stabbed or seriously wounded when attacked (by a weapon) so was >his >working out so hard a replacement for not talking about it to >anyone ? >Comments ? >Illona I have found that a lot of times when someone trains harder then before it is because they do not want to talk about something that has happened, they do not want to become a victim again. As always the best offense is a great defense, if you can get away from a problem and not make yourself a victim then that is what you need to do. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:02:01 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE:Jerry's Contact Lesson Jerry, As you know, it's a lesson you never forget. But I don't recommned allowing yellow belts spar with hard contact. Not enough control or experience. By the way, a few weeks ago, some folks were talking about boxing being a better choice for street defense. In my opinion, boxers do so well because of their sparring and contact experience and their focus on conditioning. From my experience, eastern martial arts are potentially more effective, but most of us don't train and condition to the same level of intensity. Danny Dunn ------------------------------ From: "Luc Nguyen" Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:59:57 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Knife defense It is interesting to see many of you actually faced with the situations of defending yourself against knife attacks. I wonder how many of these situations are because you asked for it? I don't mean any disrespect here but since I have never been in any such situation I would like to pose some questions for discussion. When I was younger, I feel invincible, I can take care of myself, etc. I don't mind going into bars in a bad neighborhood. Lucky for me I did not have to defend myself at any time. Now as I am getting older, I would ask myself why would I do anything like that. It's true that I probably have a high chance of prevailing in any fighting situation but why risk it? What do I get for risking to get injury or cut? The best self defense, I now tell my students, is not to get yourself in a situation where you have to defend yourself. I know that there are cases where you absolutely have to defend yourself or your loved ones. For those of you who have been in these knife defending situations, would you do anything different to avoid it? It's rare that someone would pull a knife on you for no reason. Something must have triggered it. May be because you look/talk/laugh at their boy/girl friends, may be you take a shortcut through a bad neighborhood, may be you show off your MA skill and someone want to test you out, etc. Whatever the reasons, now that you have time to reflect on it, would you have done anything different? Would you tell your students, or your children to do anything different? Regards, Luc ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:37:17 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Eskrima Tournament Ray, Given your explanation of eskrima a couple of days ago, how is an eskrima tournament conducted? Unarmed? Armed? What weapons? General rules? Contact level? Just never had the oportunity to see one. I know this doesn't fit under the DD so you may reply directly to me if you wish. Thanks. Danny Dunn ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 9:18:30 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: RE: Eskrima Tournament > Given your explanation of eskrima a couple of days ago, how is an eskrima > tournament conducted? Unarmed? Armed? What weapons? General rules? Contact > level? Just never had the oportunity to see one. I know this doesn't fit under > the DD so you may reply directly to me if you wish. This one will probably go by the WEKAF (World Eskrima/Kali/Arnis Fed) rules. They are attempting to get this type of sport fighting into the Olympics. ?? Participants wear a helmet w/light shoulder pads, a padded apron that protects the trunk, upper arms, upper legs, padded gloves. A rattan stick is used as a weapon. Full contact. Beat on each other with the sticks. Corner refs keep score. 3 rounds. 10 point must system. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 9:21:08 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #89 ******************************* It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.