From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #95 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 9 Feb 2001 Vol 08 : Num 095 In this issue: the_dojang: Guns for disarm training Re: the_dojang: Pepper spray Re: the_dojang: Gun Disarms the_dojang: Belt Color Re: the_dojang: Belt Color the_dojang: Belt meanings the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #94 the_dojang: Re: Belt colors the_dojang: Tedeschi book the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #94 the_dojang: Pepper spray the_dojang: Pepper Spray the_dojang: Re: Doces Pares Tournament and other comments ... the_dojang: Quick the_dojang: Light Hearted the_dojang: Re: self/home defense the_dojang: questions the_dojang: Arnold's Battle of Columbus (Ohio) the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gregory Giddins Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:27:59 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Guns for disarm training On types of guns for gun disarm training: You may want to try an "airsoft" gun, they are more or less gas powered BB guns that shoot little plastic BB's. (You can also get spring loaded and electric as opposed to gas) They make many, many different types, all are very authentic replicas of firearms, and the gas powered ones have a very short delay from trigger pull to bb firing (unlike most squirt guns). Of course, I would highly reccomend safety glasses...those little bb's fly everywhere. If you're curious, try this site for starters: http://www.iisports.com/iisports/ and click on the "Airsoft Store" tab at the top. If you set up a wholesale account the prices drop dramatically. Greg Giddins ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 16:15:02 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: Pepper spray > I was hoping someone might be able to help with this, I'm in the dark. I > had a discussion over Christmas with my sister who wanted some form of > defense for herself and her home. She wanted something non-lethal, and > wasn't very interested in MA or self-defense classes, at least at this > time. Does anyone know of a good pepper spray or similar chemical defense > spray that they have tested and liked? Could you tell me what you liked > about it, disadvantages, etc.? Since this is off-topic, you can reply to > me off the digest if you wish. Thanks, I personally don't think pepper/OC/mace would be a good choice for home defense. It is probably better for use on the street as a quick spray and then run the other direction type weapon. It will generally not deter a motivated attacker, especially in a limited area like a home. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 16:28:08 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: Gun Disarms > Has anyone seen a video series on gun disarms produced TRS (Threat Response > Solutions). The instructors claim that through their trial and error > research (using real handguns with wax bullets) they found that clearing the > weapon to the inside of the attackers body (pushing on the back of the hand > holding the weapon) will cause them to pull the trigger involuntarily much > more so than clearing the weapon to the outside. Not sure, but I personally tend to focus more on how quickly can I redirect the aim while getting (some) control over the weapon. The two approaches that I like are the Folsom Roll (taking the handgun up and over the holder's shoulder/head) and the more basic strong-hand clear. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Danny Alberts Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 17:06:38 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Belt Color Mmmm, these comments would not reconcile the fact that the meanings of the ITF's TKD belt colors, standardized around the world and not just America, were developed by non other than the originators of the art, the Koreans. And again, black, opposite of white, is also just a beginning (of course, at a different caliber). - -danny > If you are looking to find the Asian origin of the meaning of belt coloring, > you will not find an honest answer...the "color" system is an "Americanized" > invention... > > I can tell you that in Tang Soo Do, our 'Black Belt' is actually Midnight > Blue because the color black represents death...and achieving a 'Black Belt' > is not an end, but a beginning :o) > > - -Cheree ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 17:16:35 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: Belt Color > If you are looking to find the Asian origin of the meaning of belt coloring, > you will not find an honest answer...the "color" system is an "Americanized" > invention... I think it is fair to say that the gup/dan system was first created in Japan by Dr. Kano and he also pioneered the use of colors, brown and black. What seems to be the American influence is perhaps the vast array of colors that we see employed; white, yellow, gold, orange, camo, green, blue, purple, brown, red, black. Sorry if I left any out... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: SungPaeKi@aol.com Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 20:09:45 EST Subject: the_dojang: Belt meanings In a message posted on 2/8/01 I'm pretty sure Jiguro Kano (The founder of Judo) was the inventor of the colored belt system. To make the martial art more popular in Japan. Other Grandmasters saw his idea and thought it was good, and started using it in thier martial arts. It is far from being an Americanized invention. It is relativly new as far as martial arts go though. Just my two pennies Sung Pae Ki ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:31:33 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #94 Dear Jeremy: "...Now the GM has the credit company hounding him for the final payments and he feels he shouldn't have to pay due lack of qualified teaching. Question number one: Does he have any legal recourse to stop the creditors? Question number two: Who do you feel is in the right?....." As many times as I hear this song it never sounds any sweeter. Joe Svinth (E-BUDO.COM) commented to me not so long ago about my unwillingness to subscribe to MA magazines and stated that one showed better support for the publication by making the greater financial commitment of a subscription. I share this because I think I see some of the same rationale in the contract system. Without having these arts as an integral part of our American culture, how are we to encourage students to the kind of long term committment necessary to develop an appreciation of just exactly what the arts have to offer. Flipping the coin over, there is the other question of contracting for one thing (professional instruction) and getting another thing (professional baby-sitting). I have some thoughts if you are interested. Not being a lawyer I don't imagine any of this will be of much help. a.) I suspect your friend signed a contract which was probably long on protecting the interests of the school and short on protecting the interests of the student. Thats about parr for the course. I bet your friend could probably beat the contract with a good lawyer but it would take more cash than he probably owes. Then again, perhaps he could pay the contract off and sue the school for breach of contract as a separate issue. Once again-- more cash---- for more lawyers. b.) I suspect your friend got exactly what he invested himself for. (This isn't a cruelty, just an observation by an outsider.)His child wanted MA, so he bought his child some time in a MA school. After a while the child became bored when it wasn't all Chuck Norris and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Next stop Tennis Lessons, or Soccer, or Little League. Thats a big part of growing-up--- the sampling process. Its also a big reason I don't teach kids. Teaching adults I still get a lot of the same stuff though.. c.) He has recourse, and the people dunning him must follow specific protocols for collection. It will probably be easier to just pay what he owes and thank the school for showing him the true face of commertial MA in America. In a way if he only has about three months left he is getting off pretty easy. There is always arbitration through the Better Business Bureau and though it is unlikely that a collection company would submitt to something like this. Afterall thats one of the reasons schools turn their contracts over to agencies. d.) The last comment I have is probably the most bitter. Jeremy, its not about being "right," or "fair" or even "just". Our courts of law do not guarentee us justice. They only provide an opportunity for justice. Not you or I can make a person do the right thing by their students, instructors or peers if they don't feel it. After some of my more testy comments I usually get one or two letters off-line from folks wanting to know who I think I am to lecture people about the nature of MA and the responsibilities of the artists. You friend is experiencing an excellent case of what happens when we all just sorta turn our backs on those same traditions and responsibilities and console ourselves with old saws like "its' none of my business" and "thats the way it goes." The MA were never intended as commercial ventures, but that dos not stop people from trying to make them into such by feeding on peoples' fantasies. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: SallyBaughn@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 22:28:24 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Belt colors Cheree wrote: << because the color black represents death >> But in Korea, white is the color for death... Sally SallyBaughn@aol.com ------------------------------ From: "Shaun M. Fortune" Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 21:51:11 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Tedeschi book I hope I'm not starting something here... ;) I got Master Marc Tedeschi's book "Hapkido: Traditions, Philosophy, Technique" for Christmas this year and I was wondering what opinions people in the Dojang have about this book and anything else M Tedeschi wrote. I'd be particularly interested in Mr. Sims' response due to the recent line of discussion on hapkido's history. There are many portions of the book that I have not read in-depth yet (I got MANY books for Christmas ;), but beyond the vast number of tecniques cataloged, it looks like there is also quite a section of interviews. Off-list replies are fine. I'm just curious about some long-time practitioners' opionions. I've only been studying hapkido for a couple years and I have a LOT to learn. :) Thank you, Shaun M. Fortune Taekwondo/hapkido _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Leah Makuch Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 22:55:37 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #94 Re: Website for school Okay, I'm not the club instructor, but I am the club webmaster so I feel I can say something on this. :) Our website is equal parts to advertise the club to our college (we're at UMass Amherst) and to provide info for club members. We just recently bought the domain name www.umtkd.com, but our site is hosted through the university. I try to post info for club members when it becomes available, like upcoming tournament dates and practice time changes, and we have a message board for members to voice their opinions about things. It's a fun system, but for the really important info we call them or send out email. I didn't know the site was actually being seen outside the club, but it turns out that two new members showed up today because one of them had heard about a TKD club on campus and did an online search, and found us! Guess the net isn't so big after all. - -Leah Makuch lyet143@student.umass.edu www.umtkd.com ------------------------------ From: Bernard G Redfield Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 23:29:45 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Pepper spray I don't know if this qualifies as a real test, Did anyone see the show JackAss where the "JA" lets himself get shot with the strongest Pepper spray, a Tazer , and a Stun Gun? He said the pepper spray was the worst(right?) Bernard ------------------------------ From: "TNT-Police Combatives ." Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 21:16:36 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Pepper Spray Pepper spray. Oleoresin Capsaicin. Karate in a can. It worries me that she wants to protect herself and her home with Jalepenos. Personally, I have my duty firearm and my trusty 12 gauge for that task...My life is worth it. Even choosing a firearm for the task is worthless unless you are willing to learn how to fight with it. Yes, OC may do the job, but there are dangers in relying only on it. Proper training should also be considered. I have lost count how many times I have been sprayed. Each time, it decreases in intensity. We do scenario training after being sprayed...I can still functionally 'kill' someone who has not been sprayed. I know a trainer at a local department that shows no effects when sprayed...he laughs and licks it off. I would hate to discharge OC in my house...decontamination would take forever. Nothing like you and your loved ones trying to get out of the house to avoid a badguy and having to run through a cloud of OC. For duty, I currently carry the MK-VI 'Aerosol Pepper Projector' from First Defense. 10% OC. I used up my M-4 Punch II during training. It was 5% of 2,000,000 SHU(Scolvelle Heat Units) of Oleoresin Capsicum. Pretty good stuff. Made me cry like a baby...cleared the sinuses too. For me, OC gives another option of force...sometimes it works, and the biggest baddest dudes drop like flies. Many times, the effects are nullified by adrenaline, narcotics or just plain being wacko...which is why I also carry a baton and a handgun. Mark Gajdostik TNT-Police Combatives _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 23:20:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Doces Pares Tournament and other comments ... Ray noted: Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 9:18:30 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: RE: Eskrima Tournament > Given your explanation of eskrima a couple of days ago, how is an eskrima > tournament conducted? Unarmed? Armed? What weapons? General rules? This one will probably go by the WEKAF (World Eskrima/Kali/Arnis Fed) rules. They are attempting to get this type of sport fighting into the Olympics. ?? Participants wear a helmet w/light shoulder pads, a padded apron that protects the trunk, upper arms, upper legs, padded gloves. A rattan stick is used as a weapon. Full contact. Beat on each other with the sticks. Corner refs keep score. 3 rounds. 10 point must system. Ray Terry> Just got off the plane at LA, CA. Man, I grabbed a three seater and took some melatonin. The Mrs. and I bought some property near Mactan Airport, Cebu. About 2 minutes from the beach. Eskrima tournament ? GM Canete, with that great laugh of his, told me a story about the time he fought in Cebu against a challenger. They asked how long each round should be. GM Canete advised that in Eskrima with sticks it will last only 10 seconds. He went on to say that they used to fight without any head gear. Regarding Eskrima, a relevant point was made that the art seems to be gaining more prominance in the U.S. The Philippine government is not as adept as the Korean government in marketing their martial arts, re: TKD. Well, more to follow after I catch a few Z's. I am tired of hearing someone tell me "Sir, please put on your seat belt...Sir, you must sit up ...Sir, do you want the fish or chicken ?..." McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 02:33:19 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Quick Alain writes: > I was hot headed and quick to fight. A lot of the stuff I was in > could have been avoided. I was stupid on more than one occasion, and very > lucky on a number of occasions too. Like to say it was my toughness, skill > and all that, but reality is I got lucky a few times too. Anyone can be > beat, crippled, or killed.... Hello Alain. Isn't it strange how we seem to mellow with age. I agree completely with the luck being a reality. Anytime you come away (from a real fight) without scars or worse, you can count your blessings. The more I learn about the arts, the more I see how fragile the human body really is. Good post to share with those who have yet to mellow. Sincerely, Rudy ------------------------------ From: "Miguel" Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 07:25:14 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Light Hearted I've been reading the digest for the past serveral weeks and the topics are geting pretty grim with knives and blood and death, etc., so I will intro this for a light hearted moment. (it does not work with netscape, I'm tryin to correct. Meawhile please use IE). http://garciatkd.com/instructor.html Miguel ------------------------------ From: Martin Price Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 04:57:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: self/home defense Chris, all of what I am about to say is personal opinion. In regards to non lethal home defense for your sister I would say she should get a good alarm system for her house with a perimeter zone if she has a single family home. She is making a serious mistake if she thinks she can defend herself at home with pepper spray or the like. Why? In many cases all this does is make the home invader very POed. The only way to make sure a home invader is unable to continue an attack is to take them out. She may want to also consider a Rottweiler or the like for home, this is normally an excellent deterrent. In regards to her self defense on the street, pepper spray or the like is a last resort. She needs to learn how to avoid potential trouble spots, have someone escort her to her vehicle and always be aware of her surrondings. Pepper spray and the like can be very effective if it hits the attacker directly in the face/eyes, but this is easier said than done. If someone is attacking her on the street it is more than likely going to be by surprise allowing her little if any time to get the spray out and use it accurately. She should have some training in escape techniques and practice them often. If she is avoiding potential trouble spots a quick escape followed by screaming for help should greatly cut down on the possibilities of an attacker continuing their attack, however if she has entered a secluded lonely area an attacker will more than likely come out on top. The most important thing for her to learn is to recognize and avoid potential trouble. Know who she is out with, know the areas she goes to, and use her head. I know there are a lot of products that claim they are the ultimate in non-lethal self defense, but in reality the best self defense is using your head and avoiding trouble spots. Yours in TKD Martin one of the Gray Beards ___________________________________________________ GO.com Mail Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com ------------------------------ From: "Via, Suzanne" Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:43:55 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: questions I've been taking TKD for about a year now and as I climb the ranks obviously one of my goals is to master the terminology in addition to the tenets, history and oath. So far I've had very little difficulty, but I do have a couple of questions that I haven't been able to get answered, and I would appreciate some clarification - 1. Regarding the knife hand block - "sohnal makki" - what is the correct prefix for the double knife hand block? Would it be "Sang sohnal makki" or "Doo sohnal makki"? Or does it even matter? 2. What is the difference between "koobi" and "suhgi"? Are they interchangeable or is there a rule of sorts for this? "koobi" is only used for front "ap" and back "dui" stances, and the rest are "suhgi"? Also, I understand that there are two "divisions", if you will, in the teaching of TKD, the "traditional" and "modern". The Koryo school to which I belong teaches both the Chonji forms and the Taegeuk forms. I noticed yesterday when I visited the link for Indiana University provided by Dakin Burdick, their TKD forms are "Kicho" and "Pague", but have the same suffixes of "Il Jang", "E (or "Yi" by my manual) Jang", "Sam Jang" and "Sa Jang". For some reason, I thought that the Chongi and Taegeuk forms were the standard TKD forms. I could use some enlightenment, obviously? Thanks!! Suzanne Via Piedmont Virginia Companies, Inc. Phone: (804) 973 - 1321 Fax: (804) 973 - 9784 E-mail: suzanne@pvcinc.com ------------------------------ From: "Udell Holmes II" Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:52:38 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Arnold's Battle of Columbus (Ohio) Is anyone on the list going to Arnold S's Battle of Columbus Martial Arts Tournament and Expo? Just thought I'd ask...might be interesting to meet some people on the list down there. Udell ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 7:39:40 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #95 ******************************* It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.