From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #105 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 13 Feb 2001 Vol 08 : Num 105 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #104 the_dojang: Combat HKD the_dojang: Re: Belt promotions the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #102 the_dojang: Re: willing to pay, or sacrifice, to keep a quality school in his area the_dojang: Ki for kids the_dojang: White and Death the_dojang: Re: Contracts and legal stuff the_dojang: Re: More contract stuff ! the_dojang: Re: Misreading questions, re: contracts and common sense the_dojang: RE: Survey Feedback the_dojang: Re: And the first winner is ? Re: Good contract response IMHO the_dojang: Contracts: the result of the offered hypothetical the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "bryce burrows" Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:14:53 +1300 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #104 hi All its been a while since i have been on the dojang mailing list first up, our revised website for kukjae Hapkido here in New Zealand www.hapkido.co.nz secondly, what marketting tools/ ideas does everyone find useful to increase membership? Regards Bryce Burrows Kukjae Hapikdo Instructor ------------------------------ From: "Todd and Debi Deininger" Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:33:24 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Combat HKD When was Combat HKD founded/developed? Todd ------------------------------ From: "Paul Rogers" Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 21:52:08 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Belt promotions > But we promote no one here unless they are ready to be promoted ... if it > takes them a whole year ... so be it. It is up to them and the amount of > practice and diligence in learning what they need to learn. > > Illona I'm curious, what's the white-to-black belt attrition rate at your school? This is probably sacrilege, but after much internal (and some external :) ) debate, I've come to the rationalization that it's worth promoting a slightly less than stellar student if it helps that student stay in the art for a longer time, with the hope that the dedication and diligence will increase as the student remains in a positive training environment. Obviously, there are potentially serious trade-offs (students can't really defend themselves, or they get an overblown sense of self with a subsequent letdown). For example, I have a petite daughter who's been in TKD for 5 1/2 years now. It's kind of an effort to get her to go to class 3x per week. Is she a cement block (or even single 3/4" pine board) breaking tigress who can whale on guys twice her size? Naaah. But she's limber, flexible, coordinated, better under pressure, and more confident about things in general. Plus, she's retained a few self-defense techniques :). I don't push her too hard; I'd rather she just stay in it for a long period than demand picture perfect form. Just my 0.01 (not even 0.02, since this is probably an old debate...). Paul Rogers, Round Rock, TX (ATA - yup, the system with the camo belts) ------------------------------ From: "The Porras Family" Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 21:17:11 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #102 Hello! Our dojang is looking to outfit our kids with warm-up jackets. I was wondering if anyone had an outfitter you use and would like to recommend. We are looking for a longer jacket that fits over the hips with/without an adjustable drawstring bottom. Color blocking or some stripes would be nice too. A website or a phone number would be appreciated. Margie Porras ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 00:09:43 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: willing to pay, or sacrifice, to keep a quality school in his area In a message dated 2/12/2001 6:21:43 PM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I suppose what I am really asking is just what it is that the average Joe on the street is really willing to pay, or sacrifice, to keep a quality school in his area? >> I guess not much. Just had some parents and their kids in my dojo tonight looking for a new school to put their kids in. Like I said before ... this other school just closed this weekend and the students are out looking now for other dojo's to practice MA in. But they don't want to pay a high price ... they want month to month commitment ... and get mad if they can't come every single day to every single class for that small amount they are paying. If others are paying more and getting more attention than them ... they complain. This is about the gist of what I got from these parents. No wonder that other school closed it's doors. They certainly weren't there to help out. Only to complain. We used to have a really good USKO school in the area ... but they didn't charge much for lessons. When they closed their doors ... their students went looking for other schools and then complained about our 'high' prices. I explained to them that what I have been charging has been the same since 1995 ... no increase ... and my doors are still open. Maybe if USKO had been charging what I was charging ... their doors would still be open too. No, they complained ... if they did they wouldn't have been there. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you pay enough to keep the doors open ... or the doors close. That is just the way it is. They were not willing to do so ... so they have paid the ultimate price for their so-called loyalty to that school. Oh well. Illona ------------------------------ From: SungPaeKi@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 00:11:29 EST Subject: the_dojang: Ki for kids I teach a Tae kwon do class for kids. I have about 11 or 12 students at the moment. I was wondering if anyone out there teaches there younger students what ki is, and if so, what do you teach and how? I ask this because I'm not sure how parents will react to what I want to teach them. I don't want to get to technical with it, I just want them to understand the basic principles. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance Sung Pae Ki ------------------------------ From: "K T" Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:30:51 +1100 Subject: the_dojang: White and Death People I've noted a number of you have mentioned that white means death in various cultures. Can't say that I'm an expert but something in the back of the ole memory is telling me that it is used symbolically for rebirth, higher plain incarnation etc. (depending on which bent of a deity you believe in) Perhaps my thought will jog someone else's memory. Regards, Noel Doney _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 05:09:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Contracts and legal stuff Mr. Weissler partially noted: Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 05:25:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: More contract stuff ! Another response to my query on contract interpretations versus common sense approaches resulted in this partially edited response: Response: The response above is predicated on several erroneous summary conclusions, to wit: a. If someone wants to travel for a month and do whatever it is the sole decision of the respective individual. Freedom of travel is an inherent right. Moreover, face it--a martial arts school and lessons are leisure activities for most individuals. A small percentage of students take it to a level where it is a paramount part of their lives. Not saying that an ardent supporter of martial arts is wrong, just saying many of us have various interests in life including family and jobs. b. People travel for a myriad of reasons, re: jobs, military, business opportunities, leisure, holidays, and so forth. I would encourage people to travel if possible (and if they can afford it) since it opens up the learning experience. c. While it is the sole discretion of an instructor of a school to decide who should be promotable, travel decisions are up to students and families. If an instructor wants to have me retrain since I have been gone for several weeks that is fine with me. However, I am not obligated to stay home for fear of missing my martial arts lessons. The latter point is the last thing on my mind. d. The issue is focused on whether a school or instructor should work with families who have members involved in travel, military, or businesses requiring extended travel away from home. e. In sum, the last thing I worry about is whether or not I will pass my next martial arts test. If my job or leisure requires travel then so be it. I can get to my "other interests" at a subsequent point in time. f. How would respective instructors handle this travel situation is a curiousity I have. Call it opinion seeking. McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 05:42:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Misreading questions, re: contracts and common sense It seems I have hit a real hot spot in the emotional make up of certain martial arts practitioners. Another comment resulted in this point, again partially edited: Response: The initial question was how would respective school owners and instructors handle the following situation: a. You have three family members attending a particular school on a continual basis. b. The family members bring the school a large amount of money based on the family attendance. c. There is no formal one year written contract. Their is a month to month payment basis. d. The family member or his children must travel or have decided to travel. This could be for (1). Business; (2). Pleasure; (3). Military; (4) Pick other reason. e. The elder family member asks the instructor if that school could provide a credit for the month since the family will not be present. Now, follow the above and make the following decisions. Leave out the emotional baggage of what Americans are trying or not trying to do, re: 1. Do you tell the family, "Sorry, Charlie, you got a month to month contract with me. Pay me buddy." 2. Do you tell the family, "Your good students no problem we will work it out." 3. Do you tell the family, "Clause b, section a says no breaks for vacations. This is not Asia. This is America. You signed the contract. Pay me, buddy !" So seasoned instructors-- what method do you use in this situation ? In contrast, just for your edification, a Grand Master in the Philippines told me "Whatever you believe is good" when I wanted to pay him for private lessons. He did not read me any contract clauses, did not tell me about Filipino standards, and did not have an over regulated sense of conducting himself. Answers please ? Many thanks, McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 07:43:52 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Survey Feedback Dear Ray: "...Umm, can you cut that in half? Or request those that intend on filling it out to contact you directly? Or perhaps put it up on a ftp site..." I suppose that I can reduce the point size for the font and see if that helps. I want to fax a copy to Master West and had hoped that some of the folks would get a chance to comment on the overall tenor of the survey. I'll also take a crack at posting it to my website in a day or so and see if that works. Thanks, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 05:48:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: And the first winner is ? Re: Good contract response IMHO I received this response on the contract issue: Subject: Re: Question on contract fees, etc.IMHO: If the person tells the instructor ahead of time that s/he will be away, then the instructor should give a leave of absence. However, if the student does not so inform the instructor then there should be no leave.> Response: So far this response leads the pack. Shows common sense, smart business sense, and negotiation skills. Of course this is only my opinion. It appears to negate the strict contract interpretation approach. Sorry, I forget I am in America. He He. McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 06:10:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Contracts: the result of the offered hypothetical Subject: How would certain instructors handle a certain contract situation. Issue: Common sense versus strict interpretation of contracts. Facts: Consistent family member decides to take month's vacation. Advises instructor that he and family will not be attending school for one month. Based on monthly fees, previously paid on time and consistently, the elder family member asks for a credit for the month. Analysis: In America, contracts are often employed in martial arts schools. Some contracts are oral, some written. Duration depends on respective school. If family decides to take vacation or if business, illness or other reasons are presented to the school owner several options are available. You can apply strict contract law and UCC provisions, or use a gentler "common sense" approach often overlooked by overzealous individuals (cloaked in instructors uniforms). Conclusion: On a case by case basis I would use the reasonable person standard. I want to continue having the family visit my school. They have payed on time for several years, will continue to be enrolled, and I want them to continue. Hence, I would employ common sense and provide a credit if notice of vacation was provided. I would advise the family that they would have to be refreshed in their training. Caveat: I would not call my lawyer on this since this common sense approach I can easily solve. I will also avoid attorney fees. Lesson learned: Keep the students. Use negotiation techniques and common sense. Avoid a harsh technical contract interpretation to such situations. After all, what happened to the Zen of Martial Arts ? McD... Bye Bye ! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 7:39:40 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #105 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.