From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #106 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 13 Feb 2001 Vol 08 : Num 106 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Hitting the hot spot (K stuff again) the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #103 the_dojang: RE: Combat HKD the_dojang: Re: White Symbolism the_dojang: heads the_dojang: Re: Warm-up Jackets the_dojang: Re: Contracts and common sense the_dojang: How much "do"? the_dojang: Contracts the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #105 the_dojang: contracts the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ken McDonough Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 07:27:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Hitting the hot spot (K stuff again) Mr. Tomlinson stated: Response: This is a fun topic for me. Sorry to cause so much consternation. Nevertheless, I will provide my unemotional response which offers a divergent, consumer oriented opinion: a. I think vacations should be taken by individuals. It helps you place proper perspective on various issues. b. To equate my cable TV bill with my martial arts instructor is like comparing apples to oranges. After all, I am planning to provide video tape to my instructor for the Eskrima lessons obtained while, incidentally, on vacation. I also purchased a necklace with a shark's tooth that I will give to him. I have not done this for my cable company. Some companies you can't negotiate with. I can negotiate with humans,if they are reasonable. c. I need a roof over my head (re: mortgage payment analogy). You know, Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. In contrast, I can miss a few martial arts lessons and not worry about my family suffering. c. I actually held my newspaper in abeyance for one month. The paper company gave me a credit. That is called customer service. Some of you "stick by the contract" martial arts instructors may want to try that concept. A little humor there. d. I treat my instructor with respect. But, I am not an idiot and everything is negotiable. Why should my newspaper company give me a month's credit but I can't rap with my martial arts instructor ? Since when did my martial arts instructor assume the position of Jesus Christ ? Forgive me for not getting on my knees to ask my instructor for a credit for a month when I will be out of the country ? Do you like to pay for no services received ? Duh ! e. I think a vacation is in order for any individual who equates asking for credit with disrespect. Time to hit the beaches and have a few beers or other drink and relax. I mean just read you last sentence and tell me your not pushing the edge on this stuff. If you decide to take a vacation make sure you at least approach your instructor and ask for credit. If you don't, out of some noble thought of being disrespectful, your out of touch with the real world ! This is my opinion only and no "disrespect" intended. However, if you were my instructor I would not hesitate to ask you for a credit-disrespect (in your eyes) or not. You would then have to deal with my alleged disrespect. But, while you were pondering my disrespect, I would be respectfully ordering a drink on a beach. And, I would not be worrying about missing my martial arts lesson ! Peace, Ken McD... Disclaimer notice: Mr. McDonough takes no responsibility for individuals jumping off of bridges based on various topic discussions. All discussions are purely opinion. Do not try this at home. > Thank you Mr. Terry! My knew found discovery (of the knowledge I actually lack) led me to search for alternative sources on the belt system. Another instructor told me that Hwang Ki (the founder of Soo Bok Do Moo Duk Kwan of which my art, Tang Soo Do originates) added the 'Seasons' belt system...white, green, red, black. Hmmmmmm... As I progress as a martial artist, I often wonder if much of what is 'known' about such matters is purely speculation. I have had several quite knowledgeable sources tell me entirely different accounts about many different subjects... ------------------------------ From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:43:35 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Combat HKD <> Todd, Combat Hapkido was initially developed by Kwanjang Pellegrini around 1989 - 1992. It was an idea played with by Kwanjang Pellegrini as he was giving and attending Hapkido seminars. He wanted to teach a curriculum of Hapkido that focused on the most important and effective techniques that could be utilized by those who did not have the time to focus their lives on the in depth curriculum of Traditional Hapkido - individuals such as law enforcement, mothers, business executives. These categories as a whole have very little time available to study an in-depth system such as Hapkido for practical self defense. During his years of training John Pellegrini has studied several systems. It was his own opinion that Hapkido provided for the most comprehensive basis for practical self defense. He then began to incorporate his own methodology of teaching what he felt was the most productive techniques of the system. He began calling this systems Combat Hapkido. In 1992 he founded the International Combat Hapkido Federation (ICHF) to standardize and credential this curriculum. Since then the ICHF has member schools in 15 countries and all over the United States. The heart of the curriculum is based on a Hapkido Style matrix. However additionally students are exposed to the basics of ground grappling, trapping, stick work, knife, and combative throwing. A program has also been developed that specifically focuses on Law Enforcement. It is continually evolving in bringing the latest findings in self-defense to its students so you could say that it is still developing. Michael Rowe Nebraska Director ICHF ------------------------------ From: SallyBaughn@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:00:49 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: White Symbolism In a message dated 2/12/01 9:15:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I've heard this same thing as well. And although I can't say for sure in Korea, I'm almost positive that white is symbolic of death in Japan. And I'm pretty sure this is common in other Asian cultures as well. >> At least several years (25 or so) ago, crematory boxes were wrapped in white and we were told white symbolized death. I've been told the same thing by people from both the Japanese and Chinese cultures. I've also been told that red is the color of choice for weddings in China. At least in the older traditions, unrelieved black didn't seem to be symbolic of much at all; but you rarely saw anyone wearing all black. Remember that white for weddings was not usual here in the USA until about 90 or so years ago. I also remember from my childhood (55 years or so ago) attending two funerals of children in this country. The dead children were dressed all in white and the caskets were also white. Maybe we're the only people with the color hang-up -- but I have no idea where we got it. Sally ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 8:54:15 PST Subject: the_dojang: heads > c. I need a roof over my head (re: mortgage payment analogy). You know, > Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. In contrast, I can miss a few martial arts > lessons and not worry about my family suffering. Well, your instructor probably needs a roof over their head, too. It gets tough for those that are attempting to make a living off teaching MA if they can't count on a somewhat regular month-to-month income. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: SallyBaughn@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:26:03 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Warm-up Jackets In a message dated 2/13/01 10:19:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, Margie Porras wrote: << Our dojang is looking to outfit our kids with warm-up jackets. I was wondering if anyone had an outfitter you use and would like to recommend. >> Try EuroSport at www.Soccer.com ------------------------------ From: DrgnSlyr5@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:30:34 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Contracts and common sense In a message dated 2/13/2001 7:19:15 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << what method do you use in this situation ? >> Assuming the students' account is in good standing and we are informed before the time off (in this example one month): We would ask that they continue to make their regular payments, and we would extend their expiration date for lessons by one month. We have several families that take a month or more vacation out of the state or country every year, and have also had students out with injuries for a month or more. This method has worked well for us. If the student is going to be out for several months (for example, due to pregnancy), we would suspend their contract, meaning their payments stop until they return. We usually do not offer these options for less than a month off. As far as "making up" training, we do not offer extra classes to those who have taken time off, unless they want to pay an additional fee for private lessons outside regular classes. DS ------------------------------ From: "Lasich, Mark D." Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:50:47 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: How much "do"? Of course the martial-arts have many physical techniques that need taught, learned, practiced, etc. I am curious, however, how many of our "do" arts (TaeKwonDo, TangSooDo, Hapkido, etc-do.) actually TEACH, or otherwise make available to the students information on making their art a "way" of living? I am not talking about the history of the art, or the symbolic meaning of belts or forms, or teaching as a profession. I am looking for the essence of the art that actually makes the student a better person? Yes, increased stamina, strength, focus, concentration and self-confidence are by-products of training in forms, sparring, self-defense, etc. But how many of us are exposed to, or expose our students to the thinking that while mastering physical technique, we could/should also be mastering our own emotions, desires, impatience, mental and spiritual state of mind? So, how much "do" do we teach? Thanks. Mark Lasich mark.lasich@alcoa.com ------------------------------ From: Dave Weller Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:06:54 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Contracts I have read with great interest the thread on contracts with your Martial Arts school. I do understand the necessity of contracts in business and am in no way disparaging those who do use contracts. I will give you my Master's method of contractual obligation. We have a silver bowl that sits near the entrance to the dojang. Each month that you attend a class or classes you are expected to put your payment in the bowl. I will not divulge what that payment is, suffice it to say that it is "reasonable" (and would have been reasonable 25 years ago, matter of fact, I've only seen one price increase at our dojang since I began training 7 years ago, and that was only after the students told the Master classes were too cheap..) We are only expected to pay if we attend, and every year the month of December is free. There are classes 5 nights per week and although I have little experience at training elsewhere I think we get a pretty good bang for our buck in central Kansas. It is obvious that those of you who make your living by teaching are not afforded the luxury of this sort of "contract", but thought you might be refreshed in knowing that such schools do exist. Look at it this way; Trust is an inherent part of martial arts training. Should not that trust extend to the payment of fees as well? As a business man I often make substantial commitments of money based on a handshake. I would rather see the persons eyes and feel their hand shaking mine than sign a dozen pieces of paper in triplicate with a bunch of lawyerly nonsense on them. Have I ever been "had" ?? Sure. Did it stop me from placing my trust in the next person? No. People tend to treat you in the same manner you treat them, and this is as true in business as it is in Kindergarten. I am not saying one should trust every Tom, Dick and Harry that comes along, but after a time it is fairly easy to see through the scam artists and charlatans, WITHOUT a contract. And don't be fooled into thinking that a high price means high quality, that is simply not the case. It MIGHT be true, but it is not a sure bet. I would certainly go into a contract situation for MA training if I had no other good choice, but I would make darn sure that I was going to get good training before I plunked down a years worth of fees. Certainly there are bad students that will not train hard, not live up to your expectations, etc... But on the flip side, you can bet there are lousy teachers out there with ironclad contracts who could care less if you learn anything or not. I am not against contracts, I just think there are other ways to accomplish the same goals.. But then again, I am not a school owner, just a student so my comments are subject to correction, deletion, or outright condemnation. dave weller student wtf tkd "Practice a thousand hours and you learn self discipline. Practice ten thousand hours and you learn about yourself." Myamoto Musashi ------------------------------ From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:24:54 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #105 << secondly, what marketting tools/ ideas does everyone find useful to increase membership? >> Free demonstrations done at local grade school/colleges... Bring a friend to class day... Local news paper inserts work well too. ------------------------------ From: "Dennis McHenry" Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:28:32 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: contracts For those of you who use contracts and don't cut the students some slack if they leave for vacation, etc, a question: Are you serving the needs of your students or are the students serving your needs? Our students are our customers. We only exist for them. No customers, no business. If you are good at what you do and provide a good service and value to your customers, they will continue. Why penalize your students if they need to take some time off? Even if they want to quit and not be there, why would you still want to be taking their money if you are no longer providing them a service? My background: I only have a small class, don't teach full time, run my dojang out of a gymnastics academy (don't have to worry about overhead), don't require contracts - only charge month to month, and if students know they will be out a couple of weeks for vacation or gone a couple of months during the summer to be with their other parent, I ask the office to make adjustments for them. I also only invite those I think are ready to test to do so. I do allow the beginners some slack, and they do many times mature and really improve if allowed to progress. If some of the students want to quit because I haven't tested them in some time, that's fine with me and I have no problem with it. I'll work with them, but there is only so far I'll go. Maybe I have the attitude I do because I don't depend on teaching as a sole source of income. I do it because I enjoy teaching and helping others. The small income I do make allows me to purchase equipment, uniforms, and expenses to be able to travel to seminars (like JR West's International Hapkido Seminar 2/23-25/01) {shameless plug}. Mac ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:49:46 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #106 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.