From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #111 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 14 Feb 2001 Vol 08 : Num 111 In this issue: the_dojang: Mastering one's self... the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #108 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #109 the_dojang: Gunting the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #109 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #110 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #110 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #110 the_dojang: Third World the_dojang: who shot JR the_dojang: Pay the_dojang: NV the_dojang: Re: Attrition/Ki for kids/Contracts the_dojang: Pay the_dojang: RE: Combat Hapkido the_dojang: Re: How much Do/More on contracts the_dojang: IN, KY and OH the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:13:09 EST Subject: the_dojang: Mastering one's self... I have a DD question... Recently, I attended a tournament in which I did not compete, but did help out. As a few student's from my Do Jang were team fighting, the ring official declared a 2-point deduction on them for 'excessive contact.' My instructor called for a rule book, for this deduction actually should have been a disqualification for the perpetrator only (allowing the other team members to continue on...the 2 point deduction actually placed them behind a point), and the ring official (who is a 'Master') really went haywire, claiming that my instructor was disrespectful and should not question his judging. As I tried to persuade my instructor, who is also a quite diplomatic attorney, to stop pleading his case, the 'Master' yelled at me from inside the ring to stop talking about him...perhaps he sustained 1 to many blows to the head during his contact training years... I am having difficulty remaining quiet about the infraction. I feel that this man calling himself a 'Master' is a joke. Should I be the better person and let this go or go to my higher ups? Sarcastic and peeved in PA, Cheree ------------------------------ From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:19:43 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #108 << He'll eventually get his black belt AND he'll probably do this for life. gary>> My instructor always says that those who think MA is easy (ie, nature ability/talent) are less likely to say than those that must work like dogs to get there... Perhaps your belief in him will also help him get there! ------------------------------ From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:33:22 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #109 In a message dated 2/14/01 10:43:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << black belt in only 18 months. >> >> Umm, that scares me. We must train at least 3 hours a week with an instructor for 4 years to earn a BB (some do progress more quickly, others less). I would hate to see our BB in a contact fight w/ an 18 month BB... time is at the essence of training... ------------------------------ From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:33:32 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Gunting Well I be shameless at put a small plug in for a wonderfully designed knife. IMHO :) The Gunting: Designed to be used closed- Designed to open Kinetically The SPYDERCO GUNTING is the only knife designed to be used CLOSED. Though it may not be the only knife that can be used closed it is the only one to date that is DESIGNED to be used closed. The shape of the knife itself, its physical attributes, are designed for maximum efficiency in closed usage applications. It is the only Kinetic-Opening knife made today. UPPER & LOWER HORNS: There are two sets of Horns on the GUNTING. The Upper Horns, the upper guard of the knife are used to pinch, grab, rip or snag. These Horns are usually used in a forward grip position. The Lower Horns, the Persian style bulge/sharp peak on the inside of the knife handle at the butt end are used in the same manner as the upper Horns when the knife is in a reverse grip. THUMB RAMP-upper & lower: The elongated, fully ribbed Thumb Ramp can pinch, trap, lock, rip or at best be used in a tomahawk motion to elicit response in an opponent. The Trademarked SPYDERCO hole is located inside the Thumb Ramp. The ramp has an upper section and a lower section. The upper section has smaller area but larger ribbed teeth to compensate. The lower ramp has a large arc to it and is the primary finger locking tool of the GUNTING. The arc is filled with small ribbed teeth that lock onto an opponent. The Ramp has another purpose as well. This RAMP when struck against an object, or "UPON CONTACT" opens the knife Kinetically. The energy transfer from an object to the knife is referred to as Kinetic Opening. Kinetic Opening is like a turnstile in that the faster one strikes, the faster the resulting opening. Kinetic Opening is an EXCLUSIVE feature, patent pending and trademarked for the GUNTING. BACK CURVE: The back curve of the handle with its dual steel liners and angled G10 allow for classic reducing circles as used in joint locking, pain induction and trapping. The ergonomic handles are designed to allow for extension and retraction to grab an opponent. PERSIAN BUTT: The butt of the knife has a Persian style Butt cap which gives a pinky hold to the handle and the rounded Persian end also allows for maximum transference of energy in a hammer fist strike. Percussive striking with the butt cap is enhanced with a round end rather than a flat or sharply pointed end cap. HEAD: The Head of the knife has no projections, nor any piece of the blade exposed. The large fully curved surface is ideal for striking motions such as hooking, ridgehand, and upper hammerfist. The curve is reinforced G10 with dual steel liners. To accomplish combative flow techniques or MBC flow one uses the GUNTING or its self-defense variant the CRMIPT tool to apply a variety of strategies which neutralize the body's ability to protect it's joints or muscular structure from injury. The MBC method of self-defense utilizes pressure point attack, muscle disruption and joint attacks done in succession but not in any particular order. The goal is to create vulnerability in a joint, and to take advantage of that vulnerability and attack the joint itself! To quote pressure point expert Grandmaster George Dillman " Strike a point to attack a joint; attack a joint to strike a point!" There are many ways to accomplish pain compliance, joint disruption and bio-mechanical failure. No two people see or react the same. Combat is forever changing, for its' only constant is change. Therefore no one utilizing the GUNTING is expected to look like the instructors nor do things in "the way". Everyone should use the basic principles to find their own way. The common element is the GUNTING and the principles that guide its usage. Application is an expression of each individual utilizing these factors! Listed are principles that guide Dillman Ryukyu Kempo Tuite, Jay Small Circle JuJitsu and Presas Modern Arnis: Basic principles to utilize the GUNTING or CRMIPT Tool 1) Use pressure points: a joint can be made to involuntarily bend or straighten 2) Utilize Two way action: push and pull at the same time. Brains understand one motion at a time, therefore an overload occurs. 3) Apply complex torque: move the joint in more than one direction " bend & twist!" 4) Generate confusion: misdirection by sound, physical motion or direct touch 5) Create a base: bases eliminate movement away from pain 6) Create mechanical superiority: keep your form and function proper. Elbows in not out .Move on the diagonal. 7) Vary the pressure of the attack: humans adjust to pain. Phase variance eliminates this adjustment. 8) Adhesion: Stick to the opponent, once there don't leave! 9) Redundancy: apply several principles at once. 10) Upon contact: enter and adhere 11) "Go with the Flow!" 12) Form follows function: destroy the form function fails! The general idea of the GUNTING is the ability to escalate the force continuum as needed within the flow of combat itself. The GUNTING allows for progression through the force continuum from simple pain compliance to joint locking, to Pressure point knock outs, to limb destructions to matter separation. Using the Principles allows one to accomplish the MBC FLOW. This Flow is used in stand up confrontations as well as in grappling situations from standing position to actual ground work. The GUNTING is not limited by proximity to an opponent. REMEMBER: Creativity is very important in the use of the GUNTING. Don't be bound by self imposed limitations, feel the FLOW and the way will be there. The GUNTING allows one freedom of action while maintaining the bounds of legality and proper force response. ------------------------------ From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:42:36 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #109 << > A question for everyone. Does your school/organization have a policy on > training simultaneously with a different organization or MA? > > Brian Woodard > Dirty Brown Belt TKD >> Well, I have a level of loyalty that will not allow me to train somewhere else. I do have MA friends who train in other arts and I have gone to watch them train and sometimes let them "show me their thing." I can't help but think I would be ostracized by my organization if I were to train at another Do Jang or art. Many people train, throughout their lives, in different styles. I just cannot imagine trying to become proficient at 2 things at once..."Jack-of-all-trades, but Master-of-none!" ------------------------------ From: "Maureen" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:53:36 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #110 > Subject: the_dojang: Contracts Rich MA Masters (by some other means) usually buy his own place (there is no > concept of a mortgage) to live and train there. > It would be nice to have this tradition carry on but unfortunately Dojo's & masters (& instructors) have to pay the rent & all the other expenses that go along wiht that. It used to be that teachers lived woth one family to another until every family hosted the teacher.when that was done school was out for the session. ------------------------------ From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:51:24 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #110 << "....New topic. How do you school owners and instructors handle hygiene problems in your schools ? ..." >> Our gup manual clearly states that your Do Bok should be neat and clean at all times...we can always refer to that as a general class-end statement, but there are always those that need additional guidance. One student's nauseating B.O. actually caused people to leave class...there was no choice but to tell him about it. ------------------------------ From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:54:37 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #110 << Proud Sponsor of the 10th Annual 2001 US Open Taekwondo Championships >> Is this in WV? ------------------------------ From: mtomlins@mail.volusia.k12.fl.us Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:07:40 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Third World Ken, Believe it or not I'm really not heated up about this,, I just feel that sometimes you ask a question and maybe you get an answer you don't like. I think you did. I STILL LOVE YOU MAN!! As for going to a third world country to form my opinion,,, why would I need to do that? I don't LIVE in a third world country, my opinion is based on MY world not someone else's perception. Oh I get it, if I were actually more (world travelled)then I would see that paying my bills really isn't that important. Or not trying to bargain my instructor down in my payments because I am leaving town for awhile, wow your'e right, I am really small world and very provincial in my ethics. If your third world instructor is so great why don't you study full time with him and then ask him for a discount for when you come back to the U.S.,, hah, hah, don't take this personally, no disrespect intended but to think that you have to travel to other countries to form an opinion of what is right and wrong seems to serve your own excuses again. Hey,, dude, I give credits also to my students, and I am a sub contracted Hapkido Instructor. Bottom line is whatever you do is your business and not mine, I don't really care, but when you ask me a question and I don't agree with your ethics then I will definately tell you what I think. I think I learned this concept right here in good ole America!! I actually dont' need to leave this country or take a vacation because I love where I live,, right here in the good ole state of Florida, deep down in Dixie. I live,work, and train within 15 minutes of the beach,, no need to take a vacation to go there. I usually go after my Hapkido training and run for at least 90 minutes on the beach. Michael Tomlinson ------------------------------ From: "rich hodder" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 20:18:08 Subject: the_dojang: who shot JR In response to who shot J.R., I would have to say, the last one was a little guy in black pajamas. Having seen the scars and the multiple purple hearts, my only advise is don't shoot Master West, especially in the head. If you can stand up to an AK-47, hapkido seems easy. My best to my friend, Master West. Rich _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:11:06 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Pay Rick Foley writes: >Obviously I'm crazy, but when my instructor tried to stop me from paying > him, > I insisted. As long as he was my instructor, I paid tuition. It would never > have occurred to me to not pay him while I was on vacation, no matter for how > long. > > Rick Foley Mr. Foley. It is students like you who keep Instructors willing to teach. I applaud your spirit and understanding of your (any full time) Instructor's needs. Hygiene: Since the buck stops with me, I have no qualms about sending a student who has a hygiene problem home. If it happens once too often, I send them home for good. We teach a close quarter art, and I consider it my duty to protect my students from having to work with smelly people. With this in mind, my Instructors change their Dobok between classes. Sincerely, Rudy National Korean Martial Arts Association ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:00:36 PST Subject: the_dojang: NV > > << Proud Sponsor of the 10th Annual 2001 US Open Taekwondo Championships >> > > Is this in WV? NV Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Shaun M. Fortune" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:41:58 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Attrition/Ki for kids/Contracts Lots of stuff to reply to from this issue. I'm trying to catch up a little; hope these haven't been beaten to death already... :) >------------------------------ >From: "Paul Rogers" * * * snip * * * >I'm curious, what's the white-to-black belt attrition rate at your school? Huge! ;) In all the hundreds of students we've had over the years, I think 15-20 have made it to black belt. The number that stuck around for any length of time after that is even lower... >This is probably sacrilege, but after much internal (and some external :) ) >debate, I've come to the rationalization that it's worth promoting a >slightly less than stellar student if it helps that student stay in the art >for a longer time, with the hope that the dedication and diligence will >increase as the student remains in a positive training environment. Depends on the student, I suppose. We have had some kids who "slipped through the cracks" and eventually ended up with a higher rank than they probably should have had (my fault, nobody else's). But there are also those who are "questionable" at testing time and then really rise to the rank *after* they receive it. Go figure... >------------------------------ >From: SungPaeKi@aol.com >Subject: the_dojang: Ki for kids > >I teach a Tae kwon do class for kids. I have about 11 or 12 students at >the moment. I was wondering if anyone out there teaches there younger >students what ki is, and if so, what do you teach and how? * * * snip * * * >Sung Pae Ki I find that the mere *mention* of ki is enough to make the kids' eyes glaze over and they get that "far away" look that tells me they've checked out until I'm done talking. Good luck to you! >------------------------------ Mr. McDonough said: (Sorry, I cut out the "from" part...) * * * snip * * * >So seasoned instructors-- what method do you use in this situation ? > >Answers please ? >Many thanks, >McD... We don't use contracts. We have people pay by the month. If they want to pay ahead, I thank them very much. If people are gone for a month (or even if they make it once), they don't pay. I don't hassle people about being there if they aren't. I figure if they want to be there and can be there, they will. If something is going on and they aren't there, then it's obviously more important (to them) than our class. That's no problem for me. Now if they want to be *promoted*, that requires a little more. I expect regular attendance and performance consistent with their level. If someone is gone for whatever reason, even the higher-ranked, long-time students, it's no problem. But they have to have been there for a while before being allowed to test again. I hope this falls into your "common sense" definition; however, it probably isn't very "business saavy", but we're not in it for the money anyway. If it got to the point where we were going to have to close the doors, I'd get more worried about collecting. >------------------------------ Just my $.015. (Some old stuff at .01 and new stuff at .02. ;) Shaun M. Fortune Taekwondo/hapkido _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:41:12 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Pay Ken writes: > I find it interesting that a well known Grand Master in the PI has a > different perspective than a Master in the U.S. Hey Ken, hope you are having a great holiday. With regards to your experience with the Philipino Grand Master, do you think he'll come back to teach you next year if your "gift" is less than what he expected. That is the true test of his generosity. Personally, I have taught most of my life for free. However, it has cost me dearly to "do what is right", and I am absolutely sure that it was a wrong decision on my part to give the art away that I had paid for in much money, sweat, blood, and services to my Masters. Someone stated that the old Masters never charged. I believe this to be a wrong assumption. My research indicates that many of these older Masters indeed charged; albeit, the fees may have been in another form (services or trade) than monetary. When I opened my first school back in the early '70's, I too believed an Instructor should never charge a fee. After all, this was an art, not a business. It was not a hard decision, because I had a job, and the martial art school was a part-time operation. Over the years, I have changed this view, and I regret my decision not to charge. In my personal experience, the vast majority of students I did not charge turned out to be worse students than those who paid on a regular basis. My most loyal students were, and still are, the ones who pay. Sincerely, Rudy National Korean Martial Arts Association ------------------------------ From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:54:47 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Combat Hapkido <> Greetings and Salutations! It is almost gratifying to know that I am viewed as the guardian and keeper of the faith in regards to Combat Hapkido on this list. LOL :) <> I have had many thoughts and pondering on this topic. I think I'll voice some of them at this time. Martial Art styles have very generic names and specific names. I look at the naming like the species and phylum distinctions. Species: Taekwondo Phylum: Chung Do Kwan, Ji Do Kwan, Oh Do Kwan, Kukkiwon, ITF, etc... Species: Karate Phylum: Shotokan, Goju Ryu, Ueichi Ryu (Pang Gai Noon Ryu), Isshinryu, Enshin Ryu, etc.. Species: Tai Chi Chuan Phylum: Yang Style, Sun Style, etc.. Species: Hapkido Phylum: Sin Moo Kwan, Moo Ye Kwan, Chong Tu Kwan, etc... Species: Jujutsu Phylum: Gracie, Machado, Small Circle (Wally Jay's), Daito Ryu, etc... SPecies: Aikido Phylum: Aiki-Budo, Shin'ei Taido, Yoseikan, Yoshinkan - These are the old schools before it became Aikido Shin-shin Toitsu, Shin Budo Kai, Kokikai, Seidokan - These Focus on Ki, Tomiki-ryu, Fugakukai, Jiyushinkai - these Focus on Sport, Aikikai, Iwama-ryu, Aikido Schools of Ueshiba, Nippon Kan - These are Traditional The study of a species of a marital art is IMHO based on the matrix it is built on and its origin. For example Taekwondo is characterized by being a Korean Art that focuses highly on kicking skills: Low to high, spinning, jumping, flying, jumping and spinning, etc. It as a whole takes kicking to the highest skill possible. Hapkido is a species of Korean Origin that has a high concentration of joint manipulation techniques as well as body mechanics, understanding of Ki relations, and is based on a principle of flowing, circular, non-resistant techniques. What distinguishes Hapkido from the species Aikido is a focus on kicking and striking in addition to the aforementioned distinctions. The various Phylum have different approaches and expectations from this classification. Some Phylum come close to the spiritual aspects that make it a close cousin to O-Sensei's Aikido others are closer related to the teachings of Daito Ryu. <> First Kwanjang Pellegrini reports in his seminars that he does not teach "Traditional" Hapkido but what we do is still Hapkido and is based strongly on the Hapkido Matrix. Aikido has similar problems look and the differences in Aikido in the Hombu dojo (HQ school where O-Sensei taught) and the teachings of Shin-shin Toitsu where Kochi Tohei teachings are done. There is an obvious difference yet and much friction between the two but they both fall under the umbrella of Aikido. Should every single system that deviates from its roots be given a totally new species name? << Nor does that stop people from practicing his brand of Martial commerce because it does not demand as much of them.>> Depending on how you look at things. It demands many things. You still must learn the techniques. << Now, later down the road when and if these folks engage in a traditional Hapkido school they will experience quite an eye-opener.>> In general a student shouldn't be suprised since Combat Hapkido has never said it was Traditional Hapkido. Kwanjang has always said that there are some things that Traditional Hapkido covers that Combat Hapkido does not. Now if the instructor of the system teaches differently then that is another matter. << Some will wonder why traditional Hapkido practitioners will look at their credentials and just smile.>> Others will look at my skills and then smile and offer me their piece of paper. :) Really! It has happened. << Some will wonder why they had not been taught all the various techniques and biomechanical and philosophical underpinnings.>> My Combat Hapkido Students KNOW why I don't teach an aspect or technique. There is no wonder about it. Now other instructors may not. Is that the system's fault or the teacher? Biomechanical aspects - well this aspects needs to be discussed whenever the student is capable of understanding. The philosophical - Depends on the teacher and the student. << The rest will find an opportunity to make it to the door and look for other less knowledgeable venues such as MA schools where "Hapkido Lite" is taught secondary or as a single part of some greater generalized curriculum. In such locations these folks can still present themselves as "Hapkido practitioners" because the frame of reference is much less exacting. >> Some will some won't. Some might stick around to absorb what is useful. <> Though I was about not to post anything just to be linear ;) My teachings have gone through various phases. Phase I - Kick Butt Phase I began my training in this phase. I was tired of being picked on. Being Hyperactive and such leads to many children being cruel. Not to mention that I was didn't reach 130 pounds until the end of my sophomore year (though I was 6'2" already!). I wanted the arts for all the wrong reasons. But I trained hard in Pang Gai Noon Ryu Karate. Phase II - Sport I no longer wanted to beat up the bullies. Now I wanted to shine in sports. I was a member of the 1987, 1988, and 1989 Collegiate National Championship Taekwondo team at Iowa State University. I wanted the Olympics that was my goal. Though I have moved out of this phase I occasionally get the idea in my head to try it at this level again. I just am not in the same league anymore I'm like the USS Enterprise NCC 1701-B and today's athletes are the USS Enterprise NCC 1701-E. Hell a few are like the USS Defiant (small, fast, and packs a heck of a lot of firepower :) ) Phase III - Self Defense I no believe that martial arts are for protection only. Living in a now tough area (Miami, Florida vs. the nice Midwest of Omaha, Nebraska). My training becomes very reality driven. Phase IV - Spiritual I believe the martial arts are a vehicle for spiritual enlightenment. Bringing my outer and inner selves into balance with each other. Phase V - Eclectic Combine the purpose of Phase II - IV. Realizing that it is all of these things and that all are aspects of training. I practice and teach my system with the Whole mind, body, and spirit in mind. Bringing a solid foundation of physical skills with the internal development of breathing and mind - body unification Ki development, with practical self defense in mind (all movements are meant to have simplistic and effective use). While competition is not highly encouraged the sport aspects are taught as a method of challenging oneself to increase improvements. The system I teach is collectively called Dan Il Kwan Mudo - Unity Gym of Marital Arts (BTW I teach at the Unity Church of Omaha :) ) Michael Rowe ------------------------------ From: "Shaun M. Fortune" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:59:00 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: How much Do/More on contracts Mr. Lasich said: >I am curious, however, how many of our "do" arts (TaeKwonDo, TangSooDo, >Hapkido, etc-do.) actually TEACH, or otherwise make available to the >students information on making their art a "way" of living? My repsonse: Our school definitely does. At most classes I teach, I try to give everyone a little talk at the end of class about some aspect of life such as interpersonal relationships, dealing with challenges, etc. We also have a section in our monthly newsletter in which I do the same. Our school is all about the Do. If we aren't training for our "normal" lives, than what are we training for? ;) Mr. McHenry said: >Maybe I have the attitude I do because I don't depend on teaching as a sole >source of income. I do it because I enjoy teaching and helping others. >The small income I do make allows me to purchase equipment, uniforms, and >expenses to be able to travel to seminars (like JR West's International >Hapkido Seminar 2/23-25/01) {shameless plug}. My response: Maybe that is a major difference in how this whole issue is viewed. I also do not depend on teaching to make a living. (I talked of our payment plan in either this post or the previous one, depending on how quickly I'm typing now... ;) I can see the "business" side of this, but I'm not on that side. Shaun M. Fortune Taekwondo/hapkido _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "jere-hilland" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 18:41:07 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: IN, KY and OH This Saturday the Tri-State Taekwondo Tournament will be held at the Lawrenceburg High School in Lawrenceburg, Indiana. The city is across the river from Kentucky and also shares a border with Ohio (near Cincinnati). It is between the ski slopes and the river boat casinos (for the locals). I have nothing to do with the tournament, but I will be performing a hapkido demonstration at the 'half time' show. So if you are attending come by and say hi! If not, I hope to see you in Jackson, MS the following weekend. Jere R. Hilland www.geocities.com/hapkiyukwonsul ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 18:59:51 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #111 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.