From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #112 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 15 Feb 2001 Vol 08 : Num 112 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Third world the_dojang: bare-knuckle fighting the_dojang: Who shot JR the_dojang: black belt in only 18 months the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #111 the_dojang: The weather the_dojang: Re: One man's ceiling is another man's floor the_dojang: Re: Paying Grand Masters=what formula the_dojang: Re: Misplaced sense of obligation ? the_dojang: re: Mastering one's self.../Cheree the_dojang: re: Simultaneous Training/Woodard the_dojang: RE: Combat Hapkido the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert Martin" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:50:08 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Third world >Ken, >Believe it or not I'm really not heated up about this,, I just feel that >sometimes you ask a question and maybe you get an answer you don't like. I >think you did. I STILL LOVE YOU MAN!! Your still not getting his beer! (Sorry, I couldn't let that one go.) Robert Martin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "John Bennett" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:28:58 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: bare-knuckle fighting > Does any one think a student would > benefit more from bare-knuckle fighting or one-step-sparring. What is "bare-knuckle fighting"? ------------------------------ From: "J. R. West" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:39:02 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Who shot JR There are some up sides to this...I can walk naked through a metal detector and STILL set it off....I can tell when there is going to be a change in the weather...I get letters from the government with checks in them on a regular basis. Would I do it all over again?....In a word NO....In two words...HELL NO....JRW ------------------------------ From: "John Bennett" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:38:27 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: black belt in only 18 months > Chereecharmello@aol.com wrote: > We must train at least 3 hours a week with an instructor > for 4 years to earn a BB. In my style it takes 15 years to get a black belt. That means that our black belts are much better than your black belts AND the 18 month black belts combined. I would hate to see one of our 15 year black belts in a contact fight with one of your pitiful 4 year black belts. As you know, time is at the essence of training. ------------------------------ From: "John Bennett" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:44:10 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #111 > Chereecharmello@aol.com wrote: > I can't help but think I would be ostracized by my organization if I were to train at another > Do Jang or art. Why the heck would you be ostracized?!?! Are you in a cult or something? > I just cannot imagine trying to become proficient at 2 things at > once..."Jack-of-all-trades, but Master-of-none!" Are you proficient at driving your car? Are you proficient at riding a bicycle? If both does that somehow make you less proficient at either? ------------------------------ From: Andrew Pratt Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:38:42 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: The weather Dear all, You may be interested to know that it snowed all day in Seoul today. That is 22.7 cm of snow over 10 hours. It is the heaviest snow fall for 33 years. I don't know about the rest of the country, but boy, we have one big pile of snow outside our office! Good time to practise those little used martial art techniques for use in 20 cm of snow! Best wishes, Andrew ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 04:27:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: One man's ceiling is another man's floor Comparisons on third world to U.S., resulted in a partial response from my friend (whom I hold no personal enmity), re: Response: Preface: It is agreed that these respective issues are dialogue. There is no personal animosity generated by divergent opinions. Having stated the foregoing I now respond to the above quoted caption by Mike T. I only suggested you travel to other parts of the world to open up your learning experience. This helps you see how various cultures handle relationships, family, money, and values. Certainly, you are welcome to stay in your world. Certainly you are free to remain in your own world and live within the parameters established by not comparing other countries. Again this is a decision you solely make. Paying bills and obligations is important. However, the distinction is the over emphasis you place on it. Have you heard of bartering. Have you heard of doing a favor for someone in exchange for something else ? Or have you heard about someone teaching you a martial art or concepts of Ki merely because they loved their art and they were happy enough to impart it ? Have you taken the time to sit with a man who has practiced Aikido for decades and only charges a nominal fee to his students because he wants to impart principles that he lives by on a daily basis ? There is no offer, consideration, or acceptance here. There is no over regulated contracts. It is just the essence of knowledge being passed for those who may be interested. Conceptually I wonder if you understand that these things do exist. Perphaps this puzzles you that there are individuals who do not have their hand out for taking the time to talk to you or exchange ideas ? Have you taken the time to share a drink with a person who has lived a robust and adventuresome life and who is willing to tell you about it, but not expect a fee in return ? Conceptually I am uncertain you are aware of this ? Have you had experts in a certain art visit your home and teach you for several hours. Then these same individuals share only a meal with you and expect nothing in return ? There is nothing wrong with your ethics. However, perhaps you conceptually miss the point that there is a big world. Different people from different parts of the world view issues differently. There is no right or wrong just the way people relate to each other and the world around them. For these distinctions you do have to leave the comfortable environment your currently in. For example, get in a Jeepney & travel for several hours.Travel to some province and see how the people in a village live. See how they relate to each other. See how they exchange favors and how they treat their elders. Then make your comparisons to your world. Again you equate my visiting and sharing a drink with a Grand Master in his country as some financial exchange. You miss the big picture. You are unaware of what I learned, how payments were arranged, what is deemed appropriate, and the subtle nuances of interacting with a learned elder in his home and among his family. For this I will not explain. Again, you must experience this yourself. In sum, I do not think that you have to travel anywhere. But, I also think that you are unable to grasp the essence of what I have attempted to communicate. Let us say we are on different planes. Your floor is my ceiling or vice versa. There is no right or wrong. Just conceptual differences. Cheers, McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 04:42:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Paying Grand Masters=what formula Master Rudy T asked: Response: Good question, Sir ! Amid my comments I may have glossed over a lesson learned. First, I was honored to be invited into this individual's home. I was equally invited when he invited my wife and I for dinner with his family and cousin visiting from the U.S. Using my American trained ways, I initially asked what the lessons would cost. No response. After the first few lessons I was told, "We can discuss the next time you visit." When it was time to leave again and I asked I was told "Whatever you believe is fair." A puzzle indeed ? Now, using my American trained mind I thought I have to pay this learned individual something. I mean ethically I have an obligation to pay. There was an exchange. But, the subtle interaction of the exchange is what I enjoyed.The way this individual handled the matter is the lesson learned for me. What is appropriate. Is it an American standard or is it a Filipino standard. Perhaps it is a mix of the both ? So, you scratch your head and try to ponder the right response. You ask family members and you seek advice. You subsequently make some sort of payment since you want to return at a subsequent time. You leave the door open. The point is how the transaction expired. The focus is on the interplay of what you learned and how you interacted. The focus is not on the payment itself. Some individuals have lost sight of the latter fact ! McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 04:54:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Misplaced sense of obligation ? - -A poster noted: Obviously I'm crazy, but when my instructor tried to stop me from paying> him, > I insisted. As long as he was my instructor, I paid tuition. It would never > have occurred to me to not pay him while I was on vacation, no matter for how > long.>> Rick Foley> Response: Does payment have to be in cash ? Next time you go on a vacation try bartering with your instructor. If you go to a distant land and train there-- bring him back a video tape of what you learned. Ask him is this is a good substitute for a few weeks tuition. Or bring him back some exotic weapons and ask him if he is open to bartering for the exchange. Also view the movie "House of Cards". I recall one scene in the movie where the card player demonstrates that there is always one person out there who will pay for for nothing exchanged based on a false belief that everything encompasses paying someone for something. Perhaps it is guilt ? McD... P.S. To some of you U.S. instructors, have you considered bartering with some of your students who have special skills. For example, a good auto mechanic will fix your car for free if you give him free lessons. Your hairdresser will give free haircuts and manicures for free or discounted lessons. Or does the fee system solely rely on your expected payment in cash from the student ? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Lasich, Mark D." Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 08:15:12 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: re: Mastering one's self.../Cheree From my point of view, there really should be NO discussion around the decision of the judges. A specific call may have not been the best in the world, but the combined decisions of all the judges in the ring *should* more closely reflect what actually happened. In the ATA, all three judges have EQUAL say in the determination of points. The Center Judge can not overrule any of the Corner Judges, and does not have any more weight to his vote. Reflecting what all three judges see, hopes to ensure a more accurate reflection of what actually happened. On the other hand, any Judge, or 'Master' that goes "haywire", really should not be running a ring (or be even be considered a Master), IMHO. They should be the one with the control to either handle the situation, or direct the "complainers" to the Tournament Arbitrator. The flow of a specific match should not be interrupted by ANY spectator, this includes the Instructors of the competitors. The training has taken place, the competitors have prepared - the match must unfold as it will. For your part, I would suggest that you go through the channels to discuss the issue. This will ease your mind that you attempted to resolve the situation. I believe that if you let this fester, it will constantly be a bother to you. The discussion point would be that the 'Master' lost control, NOT the specific deduction that was called - that match is now history. The 'Master's' attitude, is not. You must, however, be willing to accept what your seniors say/do - the chances are very high that the 'Master' will not take, nor be required to take any responsibility for their own actions. Sad, but very true. Very hard situation, being lower ranked than those involved. It's a feeling all too familiar. Good luck, Mark Lasich mark.lasich@alcoa.com ------------------------------ From: "Lasich, Mark D." Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 08:28:34 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: re: Simultaneous Training/Woodard Following my question about "The Way", or our "do" arts: I believe that a student CAN be training in different disciplines, IF they seek they are using the arts as a way to become a better person. If all the individual is after is rank, titles, or positions, I can see that the mandates of different organizations could polarize the individual to "take sides" or choose. Now, this said, from the student's point of view, I doubt there would be much value in training in the same "type" of art. So taking two different flavors of TaeKwonDo, may not be too wise. But, taking TKD along with, say, Akido, or Judo, etc., would probably yield a more rounded and grounded individual. I have been involved in the Korean martial arts for roughly 20 years. While I thoroughly enjoy them, I sometimes wonder what "else" I can learn. I don't mean to imply that I have learned all I can in TKD, but I know there are other arts with different techniques, and different philosophies, and it does spark my curiosity to think about the possibilities. Mark Lasich mark.lasich@alcoa.com ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 09:13:11 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Combat Hapkido Dear Mr. Rowe: I identified you specifically as someone who could present a balanced response from a more pro-ICH position and you certainly didn't let me down. Thank you for taking my introduction in the spirit in which it was intended and for providing the sort of thoughtful material that will help others to make up their minds about such issues. Nicely done. Of course, you know, that I will continue to respectfully disagree. Not that I don't understand your logic. I am one of those traditionalists you mentioned and as such will continue to view Hapkido in a particular light. All the same your response was very thorough, balanced and intelligent. Thanks again. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 8:36:17 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #112 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. 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