From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #113 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 15 Feb 2001 Vol 08 : Num 113 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: Charges, Credits and Contracts the_dojang: Re: One Man's Ceiling the_dojang: Re: Bare-Knuckle fighting the_dojang: Re: American View and other Transgressions the_dojang: Re: fighting the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #105 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #106 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #110 the_dojang: BARTERTING the_dojang: NCal Junior Olympics the_dojang: Sport TKD Calendar the_dojang: Re: DD Question the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:43:44 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Charges, Credits and Contracts Just trying to catch up on some issues and noticed this thread has been going on a while. I liked Master MacHenry's response, and i will add my own $.0.02. I have a small school in a small town, and teach both kids and adults. I rent a 2nd floor in a small building, and have classes 2 nights a week, with occasional classes and workouts on weekend. Though the town is small, there are 3 other schools in town. I charge a higher monthly fee than the other places, and have family discounts, but still probably higher than the others. I do not have contracts, and I personally don't like the concept. I am willing to train almost anyone who is willing to learn what I have to show them. I also have some people training with me that I don't charge for various reasons. I don't worry about people making their monthly payments, and I don't have a problem. I just collect the fees where the folks lay them on my desk. If someone is going to be out of training a month, I don't ask them to pay me. Less than a month, I still find their checks. Most people are a little skeptical when they come in because I don't have a contract or I charge more, but I have never had any questions past the first month. I have lost some money, and my experience is that it is usually students who are not interested enough to continue. I have asked people to pay up or told them they couldn't return to classes in a few cases over the years. Most of the time they left permanently. And in every case they were students who would not have recieved another promotion. As far as quality of students and testing, I decide when each student is ready. Black belt level usually takes 4 years or more for adults, and 6 or so for kids. Sometimes, with kids, I will cut them a little slack on a test below 5th gup. Also, I grade on a 75% must system on each section of the test to pass, not 60% overall. As far as quality, my students bring me positive comments from other instructors when we do go to tournaments. My school has the highest number of medals/trophies per competitor in my region of my organization. Usually do even better in the few open tournaments we attend. I don't have a lot of students and so not a great amount of monthly income from the school, but it covers my expenses and a little. I feel that I have a sucessful dojang. And finally, from my perspective, I am not trying to make a living at teaching, and I of course am not full time. Just some thoughts. Danny Dunn ------------------------------ From: SallyBaughn@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 11:57:04 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: One Man's Ceiling In a message dated 2/15/01 11:16:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, Ken writes: << For these distinctions you do have to leave the comfortable environment your currently in. >> I cannot begin to say how profoundly I agree with you, Ken. The only addition I would make is that you don't really even have to travel to another country (although that is the greatest eye-opener, IMO). Just moving to a different part of the US can open your eyes to vastly different experiences, depending on what parts of the country you may be from/going to. Sally ------------------------------ From: UTAKOTKD@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:41:03 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Bare-Knuckle fighting ever seen or heard of the shidokan. similar to that except no striking to the face or head. grabbing, leg kicks, punching, body kicks, take downs, and ground fighting. light to medium contact of course, until you fight "pro", then full contact. if any one would like more info. or would like to compete in something like this..... let me/us know. on march 24, 2001, we are hosting an "invitational" tournament. bare-knuckle fighting only. each fighter must fight 3---10 minute matches. GOT THE GUTS? wsj ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 11:24:23 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: American View and other Transgressions Dear Ken: "....Paying bills and obligations is important. However, the distinction is the over emphasis you place on it. Have you heard of bartering. Have you heard of doing a favor for someone in exchange for something else ? Or have you heard about someone teaching you a martial art or concepts of Ki merely because they loved their art and they were happy enough to impart it ? Have you taken the time to sit with a man who has practiced Aikido for decades and only charges a nominal fee to his students because he wants to impart principles that he lives by on a daily basis ? There is no offer, consideration, or acceptance here. There is no over regulated contracts. It is just the essence of knowledge being passed for those who may be interested. Conceptually I wonder if you understand that these things do exist...". I truely enjoyed your response and I think you are speaking to the heart of the matter. Many times my frustration at discussing matters such those of compensation is that it is always framed in a western/commercial/legalistic position. Now I am not naive enough to pretend that this does not exist, but I get really sick and tired of at least my art (Hapkido) routinely being defined in this way. Last Sunday I taught a 2-hour sword class to a Black Belt Retreat. No charge. They wanted to learn and I wanted to teach. I teach at a Park district and while the district collects $55 /semester I teach for free. The class I teach at a junior college gives me about $80 a week which does not cover my gas for that week. Guess what? I really don't care. Here's what I do care about. Students who show-up if and when they feel like it and don't call. Students who expect their money to excuse this unspeakable rudeness. Students who view everything in terms of quid pro quo and then must be educated so that they don't pervert this into meaning "what you give is mine; what I take is mine." Students perpetually on the look-out for an easier way to do things, short-cuts, cheaper, faster, less challenging. For sometime I wondered about Sensei Angier (Calif) and his reclusive approach to teaching Yanagi-ryu Aiki-jujitsu. I can see where he just got tired of casting pearls before swine. He now teaches one or two, three or four students at a time. If any part of his system is lost with his passing it will only be because a very myoptic MA community in the US didn't know a good thing when they had it. Now, please don't take this as an injunction against people who have decided to make a living from teaching. I know that by not having to support a school and lights and gas and the rest I have something of an advantage. Thats not the point. My point is that the MA here in the US have reached a point where people no longer seem able to define the Arts in any other way BUT cash and carry. And it is this that saddens and sickens me; that routinely I get calls from people who, rather than discussing how we can work together to imbue knowledge and understanding in them, want to know from me that information which will tell them how little inconvenience I will be to their wallet, scheduling or commuting. Stay with it, Ken. I think you have a great deal of this pegged. best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: UTAKOTKD@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:47:57 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: fighting anyone interested in a "triathalon" tournament. 3 rounds of fighting..............round 1 bare-knuckle.............round 2---thai kick-boxing.............round 3---free-style(TKD) round one: no face/head contact, no pads, knees,leg/body kicks, grabbing, take downs, ground fighting, punching round two: top comes off, shin/instep pads, 12 oz. gloves, no ground fighting round three: no grabbing, no knees, martial arts-hand pads GOT THE GUTS ------------------------------ From: FGS & KVF Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:02:39 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #105 > From: "Paul Rogers" > Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 21:52:08 -0600 > Subject: the_dojang: Re: Belt promotions > > > But we promote no one here unless they are ready to be promoted ... if it > > takes them a whole year ... so be it. It is up to them and the amount of > > practice and diligence in learning what they need to learn. > > > > Illona At my first school, the instructor would not allow us to test if he felt our skills were not done quickly, well without lots of thinking and with either hand. Then it was still possible to fail if the stress was too much and a student forgot or got sloppy. He felt that you knew your stuff when stress did not cause you to forget, since in an attack, stress is going to be very high. His BBs took anywhere from 6-10 years and they are good!! My second school was in a different art, and there to keep people motivated you can promote almost every 3months, so I personally hold myself back. I compare where I am with my first school and go on a much slower rate. It has took me over 2 years to move onto the level of beginning intermediate and that level can normally be reached at 1.5 years. I have stayed at this belt level for over 1 year now, and expect to test for the intermediate-intermediate level in one year from now. I may go slowly, but I have noticed that I feel more comfortable getting my skills down to what feels like an intermediate level before moving on. The higher belts in my school have skills somewhat around my level, so promotion is a tad too fast. Motor learning takes a lot of time which many americans don't seem willing to wait for. Spunky _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: FGS & KVF Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:11:43 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #106 > From: "Dennis McHenry" > Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:28:32 -0600 > Subject: the_dojang: contracts > > For those of you who use contracts and don't cut the students some slack if they leave for vacation, etc, a question: > > Are you serving the needs of your students or are the students serving your needs? > > Our students are our customers. We only exist for them. No customers, no business. If you are good at what you do and provide a good service and value to your customers, they will continue. Why penalize your students if they need to take some time off? Even if they want to quit and not be there, why would you still want to be taking their money if you are no longer providing them a service? > I agree, altho I am a student and not an instructor. If I go on vacation or have to be gone for a month or more for business or family reasons, I expect my instructor to work with me. If less than a month, I don't bother with negotiating a change of any sort. However, the MAs are my hobby and my work and family are first, so if no negotiation was possible, I wouldn't be at that dojang. I do a yearly contract to lower my monthly payments but my instructor has suspended my contract at times when a month or more will pass due to injury, family or work. I think it is part of customer service and also common sense. If someone works with me and is flexible I will in turn be more likely to do more for him. It's human nature. Spunky Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: FGS & KVF Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:32:59 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #110 > Working very closely with my TKD master, I trained 2-3 hrs/day, 6 days/week > and got my 1st degree blackbelt in 4 years (this was in 1972). May be we are > all slow but I don't know anybody of my peers at the time who got his > Blackbelt in 18 months. It is just another time and another expectation. > > Luc > > It seems that getting your BB in 18 months is not all that uncommon nowadays. When looking for a new dojang (I had moved out of the area from my original), I asked each school how long it would take me to get to BB. Not b/c I wanted the quickest, but the opposite. I wanted to hear that it depended on me and my effort and my ability > and speed to learn a new (multiple) skill(s). I heard anywhere from 18-36 months with no emphasis on attendance. Recently, I was speaking with a TKD owner who assumed I must be a BB when I told her I was in MAs and had been for over 3 years (6th Gup). I know as a swimmer and coach, you can not expect to get your swimming skills from > nothing to naturally coming to you with in such short periods of time that most Americans seem to want their BBs. It takes anywhere from 5 to forever to have swim skills become natural, depending on the person's effort and natural ability. Basically some people never do get very good at swimming and some never reach that BB level. > Let's face it, life isn't fair and that means that some skills are more difficult to attain for some people. I know people who just can't get the knack of swimming no matter the effort. They can swim but looking at them, you realize how hard they are trying. The same in MAs, some people just won't be able to attain the skills. That > is not their area of naturalness. So, why promote to BB if they can't get it? Spunky _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: TKDAZZKIKR@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:41:02 EST Subject: the_dojang: BARTERTING In response to Ken's question about bartering........I am not an instructor, merely a student, but I have an arrangement similar to that with my instructor. I am trained in massage therapy, so I work on him, as well as a few of my classmates in exchange for lessons. This works out nicely for me, although I do feel that I am definitely getting the better end of this deal! Steph ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:22:02 PST Subject: the_dojang: NCal Junior Olympics Northern California State TKD Junior Olympics Saturday May 5, 2001 San Jose Civic Auditorium San Jose, California USTU sanctioned For more information contact 408-238-1666 or FAX=408-238-2344. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:51:48 PST Subject: the_dojang: Sport TKD Calendar The_Dojang's calendar of Sport Taekwondo Events February 15, 2001 http://www.martialartsresource.com Dates and locations subject to change. 2001 Maryland TKD Champs Feb 17 Baltimore, Maryland AAU Central Assoc Qualifer Feb 17 Chicago, Illinois Florida Winter TKD Champs Feb 17 Miami, Florida Alaska TKD Champs Feb 17 Ft.Richardson, Alaska Kansas TKD Champs Feb 17 Mulvane, Kansas Massachusetts TKD Champs Feb 17 Medford, Massachusetts Texas State USTF/ITF Champs Feb 24 Austin, Texas Slovenia ITF 2001 Feb 24 Maribor, Slovenia Queensland ITF Champs Feb 25 Mackay, Australia 10th US TKD Open Champs Feb 28-Mar 4 Las Vegas, Nevada Maryland AAU TKD Champs March 3 Bryans Road, Maryland German ITF Open March 3-4 Dortmund, Germany 25th MSTA Champs March 10 Tyngsboro, Massachusetts Indy Cup 2001 March 10 Indianapolis, Indiana Eastern Canadian ITF Champs March 10 Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Gulf AAU Champs March 10 Houston, Texas AAU Spar Wars March 10 Marietta, Georgia Oklahoma AAU Champs March 10 Tulsa, Oklahoma Dutch TKD Open March 10-11 Eindhoven, Netherlands Puerto Rico Junior TKD Champs March 10-11 San German, Puerto Rico New Hamp TKD Champs March 17 Durham, New Hampshire California AAU TKD Champs March 17 San Francisco, California ITF Best of the Best 2001 March 18 Czech Republic Iowa Midwest TKD Champs March 24 West Des Moines, Iowa So. Calif TKD Junior Olympics March 24 Anaheim, California AAU Region #7 Champs March 24 Des Moines, Iowa European Juniors March 29-Apr 1 Pamplona, Spain Maine TKD Champs March 31 Portland, Maine Texas Senior State Qualifier March 31 College Station, Texas 32nd UC Open TKD Champs March 31 Berkeley, California S.Eastern Florida AAU TKD March 31 Sebastian, Florida Viking Cup ITF March 31-Apr 1 Skovde, Sweden 2nd Kyorugi Masters Cup March 31-Apr 1 Geleen, Netherlands Poomse Masters Cup April 1 Geleen, Netherlands AAU Ozark Qualifier April 2 Webster Groves, Missouri European Junior TKD Champs April 5-7 Pamplona, Spain Kansas City Classic April 6-7 Blue Springs, Missouri Indiana State TKD Champs April 7 Indianapolis, Indiana Montana TKD Champs April 7 Missoula, Montana AAU Region #1 TKD Champs April 7 Niskayuna, New York Virginia AAU TKD Champs April 7 Fort Belvoir, Virginia Belgian Open Technical Champs April 7-8 Bilzen, Belgium Panama City Beach TKD April 14 Panama City Beach, Florida All Army TKD Champs April 14 Annville, Pennsylvania 22nd Belgian Open April 21-22 Belgium Western PA AAU Assoc Champs April 21 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania New Jersey AAU TKD Champs April 22 ??, New Jersey Maestas ITF TKD Team Challenge April 22 Arvada, Colorado European ITF Champs April 26-29 Villajoyosa, Spain Oklahoma State Qualifier April 28 Midwest City, Oklahoma Maryland Junior TKD Champs April 28 Baltimore, Maryland Washington AAU TKD Champs April 28 Spanaway, Washington AAU Region #9 Champs April 28 Houston, Texas AAU Southeastern Champs April 28 Nashville, Tennessee Potomac Valley AAU TKD Champs April 29 Emmitsburg, Maryland N. Calif TKD Junior Olympics May 5 San Jose, California Middle Atlantic Assoc AAU TKD May 5 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania New England AAU Qualifier May 5 Lebanon, New Hampshire AAU Region #12 TKD Champs May 5 Yakima, Washington Florida AAU TKD Qualifier May 12 Kissimmee, Florida Michigan AAU Champs May 12 Mt. Pleasant, Michigan Georgia AAU Champs May 12 Marietta, Georgia Luxembourg Technical Champs May 13 Steinfort, Luxembourg 3rd East Asian Games May 19-27 Osaka, Japan AAU Region #2 TKD Champs May 20 Waldorf, Maryland USTU National TKD Champs May 24-27 Cleveland, Ohio World Cup TKD Champs May 25-27 HoChiMinh City, Vietnam Austrian Open May 26-27 Vienna, Austria Texas Junior State Qualifier June 2 Dallas, Texas Norway Open June 24 Olso, Norway 2nd Chunchon Open Intl TKD Champ June 27-July 1 Chunchon City, Korea 4th International Cheong Open July 3-8 Chung Ju, Korea ITF Senior World Champs July 3-8 Rimini, Italy AAU US National TKD Champs July 4-7 Detroit, Michigan 16th Maccabiah Games July 16-26 Israel USNTF TKD Champs July 27-29 St. Louis, Missouri AAU US Junior TKD Champs Aug 1-4 Hampton Roads, Virginia 13th World Military TKD Champs Aug 8-16 Hoogerheide, Netherlands AAU TKD Gold Medal Training Camp Aug 23-26 Orlando, Florida 21st Southeast Asian Games Sept 8-11 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia EuroCup 2001 Sept 22-23 Helsinki, Finland WTF General Assembly & Executive Sept Council meeting Cheju City, Korea European Technical Champs Oct 6-7 Garmisch-Partenkirchen, Germany 15th World TKD Champs & 8th Women's World TKD Champs Nov 1-7 Cheju City, Korea AAU TKD US National Champs Nov 1-4 Orlando, Florida 7th Central American Games Nov 30-Dec 3 Guatemala City, Guatemala 2002 15th Asian TKD Champ April Amman, Jordan 7th South American Games April 4-14 Cordoba, Argentina EuroCup for teams May Spain 14th European Senior TKD Champs May 2-5 Ankara, Turkey 7th World Univ TKD Champs June 12-15 Berkeley, California 14th Asian Games Sept 29-Oct 4 Pusan, Korea 19th Central American Games Nov San Salvador, El Salvador 13th Pan American TKD Champ Nov Ecuador 2003 World TKD Champs Perth, Australia 11th Pan Arab Games Algeria 3rd World Military Games USA European Junior TKD Champs May Athens, Greece 14th Pan American Games Santo Domingo, Dominican Rep 22nd Southeast Asian Games Oct HoChiMinh City, Vietnam 2004 European Senior TKD Champs May 4-9 Lillehammer, Norway Olympic Games Sept Athens, Greece Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Dwight D Parker Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 07:51:20 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: DD Question I saw a similar thing at a tournament a little over a year ago. There was an 8th dan "Master", one who is rather well known in the martial arts community, who was there officiating. He either had little knowledge of the rules for Olympic Taekwondo sparring or he didn't like them, so he changed them during the matches to suit his own non-contact or point-sparring outlook. He even threw one competitor out of the ring into a table while tring to break up a cinch. He too went balistic when, after his matches, he was confronted by coaches, other masters and competitors regarding his ineptitude as an official. When this yearly event was held again a month or two ago, this Master was not there even though his organization sponsored it, because the other local schools, remembering the debacle from the year before, said they wouldn't participate if the tournament was just going to be a repeat of the previous years experience. This "master" is a perfect example of something I learned a long time ago: you cannot judge the character of an individual by the color of the cloth which they choose to wrap around their waste. And oftentimes, the number of hash marks on that piece of cloth really only represents the size of the guys ego or bank account. Don't worry about it. The guy sounds like a jerk and this was probably apparent to everyone in the vicinity who could observe his actions. Cheers, Daniel ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:53:59 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #113 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.