From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #188 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 21 March 2001 Vol 08 : Num 188 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Body movements the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #187 the_dojang: RE: Authority the_dojang: Re: KMA orgs the_dojang: Ghost Dog & John Gilbey the_dojang: The pop quiz the_dojang: first teachings ? the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #185 the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dana Vaillancourt" Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 18:57:10 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Body movements In a heavily editted piece (due to lenght, not content), Bruce wrote the following: "Let me approach this from another direction. Take my last post on body movement and re-read it. How many reading this post actually have the faintest idea of what I was talking about? If this is another area that "me and my students" don't do, I guess I would like to know why. In fact I would like to know why various individuals who present themselves variously as representing an art (and sometimes a few arts) don't discuss this material in a forum such as this, or examine this material with their students, or suck it up and go find someone who can tell them about it." Bruce. First of all, I don't have the faintest idea what you are talking about! The problem here, from my perspectice, is multi-fold. I do not think that the body mechanics can be evaluated exclusive to any particular, style, art, or even individuals anymore. And your right, the longer the diffusion, the more mixed/confused it gets. I've had many questions on body mechanics, prepatory movements, and technical applications of techniques over time. Especially body mechanics (large and tight movements, off-balancing, circles in circles, etc.) But, unless you get a remarkably LARGE exposure to many individuals doing technique, your perspective is just too small to make accurate statements. For instance, I've seen many differences in how Moo Duk Kwaners do basic techniques and the Pyong Ahns and Black belt forms. Everytime I think I could identify a particlar "trend" to either an association or style (i.e., TSD, TKD, SBD), I'd either meet someone new or view video footage showing my assuptions wrong. Why, I think it is kind'a like the alphabet, we all learn it, but travel across the country, we do not all sound the same or use it the same. With the even smaller cross-section of Hapkido I've seen, it is similar. Everytime I think I can class a style (say by body movements), I meet another individual/group with slightly or greatly different nuances. Luckily, everyone can intellegently explain the purpose and philosophy with some relevance and the job gets done (some harder and softer than others). I'm sorry, but I think a "pure" technical lineage may be hard to find, and even harder to trace to any one individual or art[although all the claims can't be correct]!! I'm sure that many first generation people have changed some over time as well. Just an opinion. Dana PS: Sorry, no spell checker working today! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Mary Braud Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 14:14:22 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #187 Dear 'Lost in Cebu': That extra 'e' you mention is only a splash of San Miguel over the period at the end of the sentence. You should be more careful with your beer here in the States! And your Coasters/Drifters mix-up is completely understood--too much beach inference. Bottoms Up! Abby (aka Mary) P.S. You may want to look up 'Dry-Out Facilities' in your local yellow pages. :-) McD wrote: > Response: Dear Abby: Please teach me how to distinguish between Potato > and Potatoe. Also, how could I confuse Coasters with Drifters. Guess I > am getting to be a lazy writer and not checking my sources. Perhaps those > long, binge drinking evenings are catching up to me ? The word sanatorium > springs up--although I have not heard usage of that word in a few decades. > ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 14:20:37 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Authority Dear Dakin "...What do you mean by tighter?..." Dammit. How come you couldn't ask me something simple-like mis-alignment? The Authority with which a technique is executed is truly a hard thing to characterize. Most people just slough it off as the discretionary use of muscle. Actually it's a little more (OK, a lot more) than that. Authority is the firness of intent expressed through the execution of the technique. GM Myungs' technique executed at full speed were extraordinarily "tight" in that one got the distinct impression that there simply was no "slop" (aka "play") when the technique is executed. (Many times when I am working gueppies I relax the authority so that their mind receives the message that they are not in dire danger of injury which tends to help them relax and execute a more comfortable breakfall or air roll.) As I say this is very different from simply using a lot of muscle and speed to execute a technique. I bet you have worked out with gueppies and BB both whose technique sucked and they compensated by accellerating the technique or attempting to really crank on your arm. Actually the average person can pretty much stand there and take this and not feel anything more than simple physical discomfort. On the otherhand, a technique executed with true authority may not be fast or powerful but it conveys the distinct impression that you somehow stuck your hand in a wringer washer at full spin and there is not a damn thing you can do but go with it and do your air-roll PDQ. This is the sort of thing that ukes for OS Ueyshiba report when they took falls for the old man. Everybody thought these big fools were just being nice to the old guy on the mat. (One Uke described being grabbed by OS Ueyshiba "..like getting my hand caught in a vice". At 80 I don't think that was muscle. I would have to think about GM Myung, Kwang Sik and the Judo angle. The reason I say that is there seem to be quite a few people who characterize Hapkido as a combo of TKD and Yudo, and I often wonder where that comes from. But, yes, I would say that if you mean that his biomechanic is reflective of more of a jitsu approach I would agree. I wish I could say more about GM Myung Jae-nam but I haven't trained under him. I think Rick (Nabors) has had some experience in that area, if hes' reading this. I, too, wish somebody would provide some information on GM Chang. His name crops up over and over again but I haven't the foggiest what hes' about. Most people who have research OS Ueyshiba report very distinct phases of development along the path of his career which produced markedly different approaches to execution. I have always wondered if GM Choi, Yong Sul likewise passed through a similar multi-staged evolution before he passed on. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 08:13:19 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: KMA orgs > Polish Taekwon-do Association (ITF) > Nowowiejskiego 1/38 Whoops, one line missing: 20-880 Lublin, Poland > 48-81-7430150 > www.pztkd.lublin.pl > Response: I am Irish, so guess I have a means of stating my knowledge of > an Irish TKD group that has been omitted from the long list. Located in > Boston, MA., near Dorchester. Entry fee: > > You must bring one baked potatoe and a pint of ale. (Talk about > sterotypes) Sounds great. Besides, I`ve heard that on St. Patrick`s Day everybody`s Irish. So I will seriously consider joining... even when sending the fee from here might be very expensive... ;)))) - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 15:37:10 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Ghost Dog & John Gilbey Ken said: > P.S. I just reviewed an interesting film entitled "Ghost Dog". Stars > Forrest Whittacre. I second Ken's recommendation -- this is one of the best martial arts movies in a while. Anybody who misses the old Kurasawa flicks or who loves the Hagakure should check it out. Bruce said: > If you can get behind this, I strongly recommend you grab a > copy of Mike DiMarcos' Journal of the Asian MA for this > quarter and memorize the interview with Robert Smith. Again, definitely agree! This one was a great article, and Mr. Smith put a lot of real thought into it. Of course, JAMA is always worth a read. And folks, remember we need more Korean materials in there! It's been a while! Take care, Dakin burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: Dave Weller Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 15:47:31 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: The pop quiz Although I am NOT Hapkido I feel compelled to respond to Mr. Sims' posting: - -----> snip <-------- From: "Bruce Sims" Subject: the_dojang: Hey, Campers, Pop Quiz time! Dear Folks: I had an intersting experience talking with a Hapkido wannabee last night (ie. wants to learn Hapkido; doesn't want to study the art/wants a stable and reliable training environment but doesn't want to make a commitment to one for its support--- you know the song) and I got to thinking about many of the little passing comments that have been made in the last month. Let me paraphrase a couple for you in case you may not know what I am referring to. 1.) "Me and my students don't care about history or lineage." 2.) "Me and my students don't care about personalitiesor organizations." 3.) "Me and my students don't get bogged down in all the philosophy and ethics." 4.) "Me and my students don't let ourselves get buried in a lot of detail and analysis." 5.) Me and my students don't stick to any one curriculum or syllabus, we just take from anywhere. Hapkido is simply what works. " Now, do the math. Take the art of Hapkido and start subtracting each of the above constructs and what do you have left? Okay now take off your mitts (and your shoes and socks if you have to) and count up the number of people that you know that AREN'T contributing to this process of degradation. Let me approach this from another direction. Take my last post on body movement and re-read it. How many reading this post actually have the faintest idea of what I was talking about? If this is another area that "me and my students" don't do, I guess I would like to know why. In fact I would like to know why various individuals who present themselves variously as representing an art (and sometimes a few arts) don't discuss this material in a forum such as this, or examine this material with their students, or suck it up and go find someone who can tell them about it. In the last 18 months I can identify exactly four people (Joe Connelly, JR West, Howard Popkin, and Sensei Okamoto) who have even raised the subject let alone discoursed intelligently on it. And two of those folks are not even Hapkido! What concerns me so much about this is that this entire process is becoming a self-fulling prophecy. The less attention this material ,<----- unsnip ---------> Mr. Sims, You have taken a pretty broad stroke at martial artists in general and Hapkido practitioner's in particular. I understand and empathize with your feelings about the general malaise of the population as it relates to martial arts. Folks just want it fast and easy and the certificate means more than the material to SOME people. Sad, but disturbingly true. The conversations on the bio mechanics of the various arts as it relates to their underpinnings is quite enlightening, and down right interesting (at least to me). Even with- out a Hapkido background I can follow this thread and learn from it. I must however, respectfully, take issue with your depiction of those who have no interest in history, lineages and organizations as some how "less" than those who do. I have read every message posted here concerning the history and lineages of Hapkido lately, and frankly I am so confused by it all that it scares me. I enjoy mental challenges, but this labyrinth is much to confusing for someone from OUTSIDE Hapkido to follow well. Honestly, to me, it looks like a bunch of name calling and hearsay. And, I dare say, there are probably a number of people within Hapkido who are at least a little dazed by all of this. I have observed some Hapkido, and have a tiny bit of training in Judo, and would love to find a school close by to study at. I'm relatively certain that won't occur given my geographical location (middle of nowhere, just east of Armpit, KS.) But if a Hapkido school were to spring up I would jump at the opportunity to cross train. Would it matter to me if it were KHF,IHF,ICHF,TGT, or some other iteration? Not in the least. What would matter would be the quality of instruction, nothing more. Sure, I would want and desire to learn more about the art, just as I have in the WTF TKD that I train in. But the bottom line would be whether I was getting good training in WHATEVER style I were learning. But, in all honesty, the discussions here have given me little guidance in what school or affiliation would be the "best" to seek out. I am NOT stating that history should be ignored nor the organizations and their leadership roles down played. But I would guess that many martial artists who have trained long and hard in their styles are more loyal to their immediate seniors and teachers than to some nebulous organization that they have few dealings with. I study WTF TKD, Kukkiwon certified, but had I started in Karate or some other art I feel I would be just as enthralled, interested and loyal to that art instead of TKD, provided I received good training. My loyalty is to my kwanjangnim, sabumnim, and my fellow students. I guess what I am getting at, in a nutshell, Mr. Sims, is that I firmly agree that points 3, 4, and 5 are too often ignored and should not be, they represent the basis of any true martial art. But points 1 and 2 ... well, I think you're whupping the proverbial dead horse there. Wale away if you like, and I'll continue to read, but if you were my patient, I'd tell you to "let it go..." Please remember my comments are subject to correction, deletion, condemnation, or ignoral. They are not intended to disparage any person, group, or entity. respectfully, dave weller student wtf tkd "Practice a thousand hours and you learn self discipline. Practice ten thousand hours and you learn about yourself." Myamoto Musashi ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:10:26 PST Subject: the_dojang: first teachings ? In an attempt to get away from the organization and people bashing for at least a day or two... What are some of the first things (save how to bow, where the bath rooms are, how to stand at attention or at ease, etc) that are taught in your school? e.g. when I began in Tang Soo Do you started with the kibons, some very very simple forms. When I began in Sin Moo Hapkido we started with the "Basic 8", a simple series of eight basic defensive and offensive techniques. Also the basic breakfalls; front, side, back, etc. How about you? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Donnla Nic Gearailt Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 00:18:08 +0000 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #185 In message <200103202150.QAA16843@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com> you write: > >From: Ken McDonough >Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 09:23:49 -0800 (PST) >Subject: the_dojang: Re: March Madness=Irish TKD > > >Response: I am Irish, so guess I have a means of stating my knowledge of >an Irish TKD group that has been omitted from the long list. Located in >Boston, MA., near Dorchester. Entry fee: > >You must bring one baked potatoe and a pint of ale. (Talk about sterotypes) > Now now, we don't drink ale much in Ireland, we drink Guinness!!! Although since the St Patrick's day celebrations were cancelled due to foot and mouth disease it's unlikely much Guinness is being consumed there at the moment. Well, not as much as usual. Donnla. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Donnla Nic Gearailt Computer Laboratory, New Museums Site, Graduate Student Pembroke St., Cambridge CB2 3QG, U.K. tel: +44-1223-334619 http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~dbn20/ "An eyelash! How could you be so careless!" - Jude Law, Gattaca ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 20:14:53 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #188 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. 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