From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #217 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 5 April 2001 Vol 08 : Num 217 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #215 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #215 the_dojang: dan fees the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #216 the_dojang: Re:More on Styles and Organizations the_dojang: Re: Test fees and Tests the_dojang: Background Checks and Legislation the_dojang: Background checks Re: the_dojang: Re:More on Styles and Organizations the_dojang: RE: Charles' Background the_dojang: RE: Testing? the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 12:25:12 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #215 I'm a father; I obviously can't disagree with a parent wanting to know about the person he/she's leaving his/her child with; or with obtaining such clearances. However: does every school teacher, day care center worker, Little League coach, Boy Scout or Girl Scout leader, Sunday school teacher, etc., EVERY single person who will ever be alone for an instant with your child - -- --- ALL of them need to obtain clearances? Doesn't look like so nominal a thing anymore, does it. Why single out martial arts instructors? First and foremost, I 100% agree that EVERY such person should have those clearances. I believe even elementary school service people, such as the 'lunch ladies,' should have them. In the state of Pennsylvania, anyone in a "school-like setting," such as elementary education or day care needs to have clearance. Likewise for ANY program run out of a state/city funded institution. We had to have them in order to qualify to teach a summer karate program at a local community college. (God, I pray that a Sunday school teacher would pass such clearances, but you just never know these days. ) Oh, and you only pay a one time fee. You keep your original, show it at the door so-to-speak, and hand a copy to administaration/human resources. Such clearances do not need to be renewed if an employer checks them at least once a year to keep them active. Otherwise, they need renewed. Perhaps being a Martial Artists exasperates my feelings. Protection, self-preservation...you look out for those you love. I will probably be a psycho parent : 0 ) - -Cheree ------------------------------ From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 12:38:23 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #215 << If your next door neighbor has a history of abusing children, then he/she must be monitored, restrained, or forced to move. >> The are monitored. I think it is called 'Megan's Law.' Convicted offenders must register and the public is alerted...Moving them would violate their rights (Darn Constitution...:) I 100% agree. All those who work with children should be cleared, not just MA instructors. Does anyone know who proposed the bill? It sounds to me, since it seems to be limited to MA instructors, that a vengeful person is lashing out against a particular incident. It could certainly be rewritten to become a more effective and protective bill. ------------------------------ From: "Emil J. Fisk" Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 00:47:08 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: dan fees Ladies and Gentlemen, If it makes you feel any better, I would like to mention the fact that it's not only Americans that pay high fees for Dan ranks. It's anybody that Korea would consider a foreign national - whether you're in Korea or not. It's not the case that all non-Koreans can afford the high fees, and therefore they're trying to suck more money out of us. I don't think they've got higher fees to discourage us from taking our dan tests either. Whatever their reasons were to charge us the way do..... well.... who's to say? For those of you that do have Kukkiwon certification, what exactly do you need it for? Is it only if you wish to change schools and wish to prove your rank to a new instructor? Self-satisfaction? So you'll have rank recognition in another country even though you're never planning to move? Just curious. In Malaysia, Kukkiwon certification is only required if you're planning on moving up in rank. If you're happy to stay at 1st dan for the rest of your life, there's no need for a Kukkiwon certificate. And speaking of which, many blackbelts have Kukkiwon certificates which were not endorsed by the NGB, and we usually have to request them to either start again from a MUCH lower rank (if they don't remember anything) or resit their dan test. Sincerely, Emil Fisk fiskej@pd.jaring.my ------------------------------ From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 12:53:56 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #216 Ms. Borski- I know diddly on work visa's, which is what I am assuming one would need to legally be an instructor in the US, (if the person does not have dual citizenship.) Could the processes of applying for one include a criminal background check through the person's home country? ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 12:01:13 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re:More on Styles and Organizations Dear Ray: "...I would submit that sometimes (often?) people -do- have a better idea. If new styles were never created we wouldn't have half of the most popular and effective styles taught today. Perhaps we wouldn't have any...". I want to be able to agree with your position but I just don't see the evidence to support it. When I look through a MA periodical and find an annoucement for some "new" style or art (ie. Choi Kwang Do, Ko Am Do) my first question is "how is this substantively different from what we already have". The answer is almost invariably that the mix of techniques/weapons/culture/philosophy is sometimes marginally different but the ingredients are always essentially the same.Somebody decides to use more westernized boxing biomechanic for their striking curriculum and instantly we have a "completely new art" rather than acknowledge a simple variance in intruction. I think the same holds true for all these MA organizations we have now. I went back and reviewed some of the info that was exchanged here on the Net. I even took the tapes that I have from GM Myung (WHF) and compared them to tapes I purchased from Richard a couple of years back. Then I compared those to the NIHON Ju-jitsu tapes from BLACK BELT Enterprises. I gotta tell you, Ray. The Xmas wrap changes but the presents are always the same. So if a Wrist Throw is a Wrist Throw how come there are 7 major organizations identifying themselves as THE representive organization of "Wrist Throw education" and charging disparate prices. How come GM-s Ji and Myung, Chang and Jang, Seo, Lee, Cho and all the rest can't sit down and pull this crap together? Why didn't Pelligrini stay with Myung and DeAlba stay with Lee? What about Rim and Sheya? Can anyone tell me that any of these people has produced a contribution that is truely substantively different from what they were taught? Aren't all of these just rehashes and reorganizations of the same basic 200 techniques over and over again? In closing and BTW: As I was just leafing through TKD TIMES for 11-2000 I found an annoucement for the NATIONAL TKD Assn. Yep, thats what the world needed-- just one more TKD organization. A fella just can't have too many world/international/national TKD Assn/fed/unions, can he? Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: cspiller@e3mil.com Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 09:46:55 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Test fees and Tests Master West said: >I'm not sure about the myriad of fees that are paid to organizations, but in my case, I first became aware of the DaeHan KiDoHae's fees after receiving 7th dan, when I was told that the fee was around $315.00, but that it had been "taken care of" by my instructor. When my wife and I were advanced to 5th and 8th respectively, the total fee for both ranks was lower than some of the 1st or 2nd dan fees that I see mentioned here. Why are the fees so high here in the states? Because we will pay it and folks know that.< Master West, first let me say that it is nice to hear of an organization charging not only reasonable fees, but down right affordable ones. Secondly, I was hugely impressed with the fact that your instructor actually paid the 7th dan test fee for you! He must consider you to be a great student of his. >On a second subject, why in the world are there all these tests for higher dans who have been with their instructor for years? Recently I had the opportunity to promote two of my 3rd dans to 4th at the International Seminar. After 18 and 15 years of training and testing under me, what could I possibly ask to see that would sway me in one direction or the other as far as their ability and knowledge is concerned? I've seen them perform on a nightly basis since they were white belts, and I watched with pride as they tested for 1st, second and 3rd dan. If they are not ready at this point, I would consider it MY fault and not theirs. J. R. West< I find this a refreshing perspective on things. It is close to the view point at my instructor's school. While there are still tests for higher dan ranks, they are viewed as kind of a cross between a test and a time to (frankly) show off. IMHO part of the reason to have a higher dan test is to kind of showcase the student's talents for the lower ranks, to see how they should be doing things. My instructor is the one letting the students know whether or not they are ready to test in the first place so they can demonstrate their skills for the other students and any friends or family that comes to watch. Taekwon, Chris "Every Experience of Beauty Points to Infinity" Hans Urs von Balthasar _______________________________________________________________ Get your Private, Anti-Spam, Free Email at http://e3mil.com Your Internet Home for Your Faith, Your Life, and Your World! ------------------------------ From: Gregg London Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 13:04:59 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Background Checks and Legislation Good Day Group, For those who feel that Criminal Background Checks are somehow "out of line" (or are not enough), consider this - In Las Vegas the process to become a Martial Arts Instructor, and open a Martial Arts Studio, encompasses far more than a Criminal Background Check. It requires a Privileged Business License - a process that normally takes three months to complete. You can see the complete Statute at: http://ordlink.com/codes/lasvegas/index.htm In the left hand navigation section, click on: Title 6 BUSINESS TAXES, LICENSES AND REGULATIONS In the right hand menu section, click on: Chapter 6.06 PRIVILEGED BUSINESSES--SPECIAL REQUIREMENTS Pay particular attention to: Chapter 6.53 MARTIAL ARTS INSTRUCTION BUSINESSES - that should give you some idea of what a Martial Arts Studio has to do to do business in Las Vegas. Best wishes, Gregg - -- Gregg London Digital Engineer http://www.glondon.com ------------------------------ From: Chris S Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 13:10:09 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Background checks Charles Richards wrote: >Student A - I am concerned for my child's safety would >you be opposed to a background check. Instructor B - >No problem, here is my most recent print out and for >$x in this state you can purchase an up to the minute >report. Student A is impressed with your candor and >enrolls. Can you obtain a background check on people in most states, or is this something that is uncommon? I am curious as to how accessible this information is without the intervention of the government. Thanks, Chris ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 11:51:41 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re:More on Styles and Organizations > How come GM-s Ji and Myung, Chang and Jang, Seo, Lee, Cho and all the > rest can't sit down and pull this crap together? I think that can easily be attributed to that pesky ole human nature. > Can anyone tell me that any of these people has produced a contribution > that is truely substantively different from what they were taught? Well, how about Dr. Kano's Judo? Or Ueshiba's Aikido? Or Funakoshi's Ryuku Kempo aka Karate-do. Or Lee's Jeet Kune Do? or Taekwondo or... Are there frauds present? Sure. But all the above and dozens more took an idea and then came up with something relatively different. If not in how to kick or break an arm then in how to perhaps better contribute to society, make a better world, improve mental/physical health, all that nasty stuff. :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 13:27:12 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Charles' Background By the way Charles, What did kind of grades did you make in school? Especially Conduct? He He He... Charles makes an excellent point about the amount of time parents often spend with their kids. Undoubtably part of what is wrong with our society. But I don't se a reason for martial arts instructors to be singled out by a law from the many other businesses that teach kids for money. Danny <<<<<>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 13:33:32 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Testing? Master West, You have made an exceptional point sir! I have often wondered why have a test at all for a student that is studing directly with you all the time. After all, I feel I know my students abilities. In fact when I tell them they are ready to test, they have in fact already convinced me they have the ability required for the next rank. Danny Dunn <<<<<<<>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 13:15:21 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #217 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. 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