From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #218 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 5 April 2001 Vol 08 : Num 218 In this issue: the_dojang: Children's Bill of Rights the_dojang: Re: Testing the_dojang: Re: Kukkiwon certification the_dojang: Re: More on Styles and Organizations the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #217 the_dojang: Re: Background Checks and Legislation the_dojang: NEW LOCATION the_dojang: RE:Even more on styles and organizations the_dojang: Organizational fees the_dojang: styles... the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #217 the_dojang: Re: Karate Schools in Vegas the_dojang: personal experience (fwd) the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ISA CONSULTATION GROUP" Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 12:29:46 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Children's Bill of Rights Please take this in good humor and don't come down on me! THIS IS A GOOD ONE FOR PARENTS! Mom Wins!! My son came home from school one day, A smirk was on his face. He'd decided he was smart enough to put me in my place. HE SAID: Guess what I learned in Civics II, That's taught by Mr. Wright It's all about the laws today: THE CHILDREN'S BILL OF RIGHTS. IT SAYS: I don't have to clean my room, Don't have to cut my hair. No one can tell me what to think How to speak, or what to wear. I have freedom FROM religion, And regardless what you say, I don't have to bow my head, And I sure DON'T HAVE TO PRAY. I can wear earrings if I want, And pierce my tongue & nose. I can read & watch just what I like, be tattooed from head to toe. AND if you ever spank me, I'll charge you with the crime, I'll back up all my charges, With the marks on my behind. HE SAID: Don't you ever touch me, This body's for MY use, Not for your hugs and kisses, That's just more child abuse. HE CONTINUED WITH: Don't preach about your morals, Like your mama did to you. That's nothing but your mind control, And it's illegal too! Mom, I have these children's rights, So you can't influence me, Or I'll call Children's Services, Better known as C.S.D. MY TURN! Well, of course, my natural instinct Was to toss him out the door. But the chance to teach a lesson, Made me think a little more. I mulled it over carefully, I couldn't let this go. A little smile crept to my face... He was messing with a pro! AND AWAY WE GO! Next day I took him shopping, At the local Good Will store, I told him, "pick out all you want! There are shirts & pants galore." I've called and checked with C.S.D., They said they didn't care, If I bought you K-Mart shoes, Instead of Nike Airs. OH! And... I've canceled that appointment To take your driver's test. The C.S.D. is unconcerned, So I'll decide what's best. I SAID: No time to stop and eat, Or pick up stuff to munch, And tomorrow you can start to learn to make your own sack lunch. Just save that raging appetite and wait 'til dinner time. We're having liver and onions. It's a favorite dish of mine. He ASKED: Can we stop to rent a movie, So I can watch the VCR? Sorry, I said, I sold your TV, for new tires on my car. I also rented out your room, You can take the couch instead. The C.S.D. requires just a roof above your head. Your clothing won't be trendy now, I'll choose the food we eat, that allowance that you used to get Will buy me something neat. I'm selling off your jet ski, Dirt-bike & roller blades. Check out the PARENTS' BILL OF RIGHTS, It's in effect today! Hey, Hot Shot, are you crying? Why are you on your knees? Are you asking God to help you? ....GO CALL THE C.S.D Share this one with some moms (& dads) you know.... or better yet some kids!!! george petrotta _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Robert Martin" Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 14:30:09 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Testing Mr. Dunn and all, IMHO, part of the test is the stress of the test. There should be stress in order to see how the student performs under a different or unusual situation. That is one reason why I don't test my own students. Robert Martin 4th Dan ITF/USTF > From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" > Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 13:33:32 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: RE: Testing? > > Master West, > You have made an exceptional point sir! I have often wondered why have a test > at all for a student that is studing directly with you all the time. After all, > I feel I know my students abilities. In fact when I tell them they are ready to > test, they have in fact already convinced me they have the ability required for > the next rank. > > Danny Dunn ------------------------------ From: David Beck Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 15:21:49 -0500 (CDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Kukkiwon certification >For those of you that do have Kukkiwon certification, what exactly do you >need it for? Is it only if you wish to change schools and wish to prove >your rank to a new instructor? Self-satisfaction? So you'll have rank >recognition in another country even though you're never planning to move? >Just curious. You need a KKW 1st Dan to compete in national and international USTU tournaments. You need a KKW 1st Dan to referee at anything more than a local USTU tournament. There are some other Dan level requirements for upper levels of refereeing also; I don't remember the specifics except that you needed a 4th for International Ref. and that with the age restriction and limited applications was a controversial issue. You need a KKW 1st Dan to obtain a coach's pass at national and international USTU tournaments (not sure about state). You need a KKW 4th Dan to open up a Dan file with the USTU to be able to get KKW Dan certification for your students. Some of those are stupid requirements; a ref needs knowledge of the rules, good eyes, and good judgement - not kicking and punching skills. But those are some reasons why. David N. Beck Internet:dbeck@usa.alcatel.com WATT Lead Engineer Alcatel USA 1000 Coit Road Plano, Texas 75075 ** Opinions expressed are not those of Alcatel USA ** ------------------------------ From: David Beck Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 15:32:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: More on Styles and Organizations Bruce says: >How come GM-s Ji and Myung, Chang and Jang, Seo, Lee, Cho and all the rest >can't sit down and pull this crap together? Why didn't Pelligrini stay with >Myung and DeAlba stay with Lee? What about Rim and Sheya? Can anyone tell me >that any of these people has produced a contribution that is truely >substantively different from what they were taught? Definately for Doju Ji; quite different than Choi. To some extent for Myung with the forms he added. Can't speak to the others. But essentially you're asking 'why can't we all just get along?' And you already know the answers: money, ego, & politics. David N. Beck Internet:dbeck@usa.alcatel.com WATT Lead Engineer Alcatel USA 1000 Coit Road Plano, Texas 75075 ** Opinions expressed are not those of Alcatel USA ** ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 16:02:24 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #217 Bruce and Ray: I think both of you are right. Bruce, I fully agree with your paragraph below. I know I see a lot of people in my region claiming to teach their own style. And most if not all of the time these people do not hold very high dan level in any art, but maybe dan rankings in two or three different arts. What I see from all of them is a smattering of techniques put together from all the arts they have studied, and nothing different, changed or modified. I suspect most of the new styles or splits are like this. And, like you Bruce, it really tends to stick in my craw sometimes. But I have to agree with Ray that occasionally, there is someone who comes along that is able to make the leap and really develop something different and worthwhile. The real question is, "What is the frequency that this happens and how long does it take to recognize the importance of worthwhile new forms?" The only thing history shows us is that it is probably rather infrequent when one considers the number of martial artists practicing in this century and the important new innovations to art or style level. I think there are 3 reasons we see so many orgs, whether Hapkido, TKD or any other art. These are in order of importance in proliferation of new orgs: 1. Ego. 2. Money. 3. A difference in philosophy. What do you guys think? Danny Dunn <<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ! ------------------------------ From: David Beck Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 15:55:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Background Checks and Legislation I looked at the Las Vegas requirements Gregg mentioned, and I'm amazed. You'd have to put up $150 for the application, $200 for the license, $75 every six months, be photographed, fingerprinted, show financial and personal info for the past 10 YEARS, and whatever the Metropolitan Police Dept. spends on investigating you gets billed back to you! And that's before laying out rent, utility deposits, etc! How does anyone get started? I think if I was in Vegas I might be looking real hard at the boxing and wrestling exemptions. No officer, it's not Hapkido, it's wrestling -- this lock is one Karl Gotch the famous wrestler did... David N. Beck Internet:dbeck@usa.alcatel.com WATT Lead Engineer Alcatel USA 1000 Coit Road Plano, Texas 75075 ** Opinions expressed are not those of Alcatel USA ** ------------------------------ From: P69H@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 17:01:58 EDT Subject: the_dojang: NEW LOCATION Just a quick note to inform everyone that A+ Karate of Clearwater, FL has moved to a new location. It is at 1836 Drew St. Clearwater, FL. The phone number is still (727) 492-0698. Stop in and say HI! Thank You Paul Hissa Owner/Chief Instructor ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 16:00:37 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE:Even more on styles and organizations Dear Ray: "....Well, how about Dr. Kano's Judo? Or Ueshiba's Aikido? Or Funakoshi's Ryuku Kempo aka Karate-do. Or Lee's Jeet Kune Do? or Taekwondo or...". OK, now from THIS standpoint, I agree with you. Dr. Kano takes Kito-ryu and a couple of other jitsu arts and reconstitutes them as a sport with competitive guidelines, scientific training (for its time), a ranking system and promotional criteria. The same goes for what OS Ueyshiba did with the arts he experienced (primarily Daito-ryu) and the various Okinawan arts that OS Funakoshi melded to produce Shotokan. On a good day I would probably even give you M Lee and JKD. Now lets take a few other examples. M Ed Parker dies and the Kempo people split into sundry organizations. M Harold Long dies and the Isshin-ryu break into factions. OS Oyama dies and the Kyukushin people split into factions. OS Takeda dies and the Daito-ryu people split into factions. Each of the people you mentioned above did produce an art of substantial difference from its originating art. But do we really need multiple Judo, Shotokan, Aikido or even JKD organizations? And are THESE organizations as substanitively different from THEIR originating organization to justify an entirely separate hierarchy. Just exactly how different is the KHA from the KHF or the IHF that were mentioned earlier? And how different is that from the USHF, or the AHA or the NHA or the WHF? Don't they all send out a cert, a patch, & flyers about their seminars? Don't they all have school programs and charge dues that funnel into the pockets of the top people? Is it that in the end this is all about business, rather than what is good for the art? You know, Ray, I don't have a problem with this if that's the case. I just wish that the folks that start these organizations would get a little honest and come right out and say it. "Hey, this is martial commerce. I don't teach martial arts as much as I will do whatever I can using martial art skills to keep my economic venture in the black. You come to me and I'll sell you the trappings that will let you act out your Martial art fantasies without too much commitment on your part-for a dollar amount. Everything else is just good advertising." If I am really off-base with this, or somebody knows something about these organizations that I am missing feel free to jump right in. I don't pretend to know everything about all of these groups. We started talking about fees and testing and I can't help but wonder what I would get different from Mike and the AHA that I couldn't get from Richard and the NHA or GM Myung (WHF), etc. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Patrick L" Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 14:19:27 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Organizational fees IMHO many are missing the point about fees. The fee for my last BB test was $800. I paid my instructor proudly & gladly. I would not trade $100,000 for what he has given me. I pay may organization yearly. I don't get a certificate, pin, picture or even pat on the butt. I get to serve. I serve all BBs of lower rank, and all BBs of higher rank. Those who think that MA exists for them ask "Why do I have to pay so much?" Those who think that MA is worth promoting ask "How can I give more?" Getting in the Way, Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 14:53:59 PDT Subject: the_dojang: styles... Well, I'm probably the wrong person to ask about styles and creating your own. Why? Because I have created one. I don't have a great name for it yet, but for now I just call it 'We have that, too'. Groundwork, yep, we have that. Low kicks, yep, got that. High kicks, yep, got that, too. Bo, jo, dan bong, knife, sword, handgun, rifle, cannon, B52, whip, stingray tail, bow-n-arrow, stun gun, oar, pepper/oc spray, bars of soap, old HP printer... You name it, yep, "We have that, too". :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 18:02:26 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #217 In a message dated 4/5/2001 2:23:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I believe even elementary school service people, such as the 'lunch ladies,' should have them. >> and custodians, gardners, delivery people, etc. We had an incidence at the high school here last year that scared everyone. Two guys were unloading boxes from a car out front of the school and carrying them in to the school ... putting them down and going back and getting more. Two girls offered to help them and they accepted the help ... when the girls got to the car the guys pushed them in the car and took off to the park ( a few blocks away ). The girls were not quiet, unassuming girls ... they had had karate experience and got away from these two guys and ran back to the school and reported it. These guys had fake badges on their shirts identifying themselves ... a fake magnetic sign on the side of the car ... they really looked like they knew what they were doing and acted like they were supposed to be there. NOW ... if these girls hadn't of taken karate and learned how to act in an incidence as this one (yes, they were not supposed to let their guard down ... but they were doing the polite thing of helping someone like they are always taught to do ... or so they said ) this might have had an unhappy ending. These guys were later caught doing something else ... but they never had a background linking them to something like this before. It was just something they wanted to try and see if they could do. You never know. Illona ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 18:06:41 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Karate Schools in Vegas In a message dated 4/5/2001 2:23:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Pay particular attention to: Chapter 6.53 MARTIAL ARTS INSTRUCTION BUSINESSES - that should give you some idea of what a Martial Arts Studio has to do to do business in Las Vegas. >> Interesting ... and I was going to open up a school in Vegas over 6 years ago (wouldn't have had a problem with the checks and stuff ... but would have had a hard time with the 3 month waiting time, tho) ... 4 years ago it was booming out there as far as karate schools ... went back there last year and 3/4 of them are gone ! Illona ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 20:37:48 PDT Subject: the_dojang: personal experience (fwd) Forwarded message: Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 16:17:27 -0700 To: Ray Terry Thank you for the opportunity to contribute to your list. I prefer to remain anonymous although many of the BBs reading this will immediately recognize who I am. On the topic of doing background checks of martial arts instructors in the dojang: I advocate this very strongly and wouldn't hesitate to go through one myself. In my particular situation, it probably wouldn't have helped, because the instructor did not have a previous criminal record. Almost 10 years ago, one of our instructors was arrested for molesting our students, particularly the 10-11 year old boys. I was a fellow instructor at the time and had taught many of the children's classes, which to this day continues to be my specialty. I had become very suspicious of this instructor early on, but did not have proof, although I did consider the following to be very odd: 1) he would have the boys take off their tops and tie their hands up. It was a game to try to escape and see who would do it in the fastest amount of time. 2) he would take them out on outings, such as trips to the beach and overnight camping trips. Occasionally he would take parents along, but usually it was just himself and the boys. I found out later that these trips provided the greatest opportunities for molesting the children. 3) he would give the boys special gifts. My suspicions finally peaked when he called me specifically to see if he could take one of the boys on a trip. I had volunteered to take six boys to a movie but he singled out one boy to take with him. I said that the boy was already in the car waiting to go, and invited the instructor to come along to the movies with us. He said no. Also, I had intended to accompany the children to the National Junior Olympics at that time, but this instructor somehow persuaded our master to tell me not to go. There were only two parents going and the instructor had charge of the rest of the kids whose parents chose not to go. The instructor specifically asked where I was going to stay. I said that I would share a room with the kids whose parents weren't coming. I had already paid the fees to attend, but bowed down out of respect to my master. Again, a lot of molestation, and more, occurred on this trip. I should say that the parents trusted us both with the children. The boys idolized this instructor. The parents had no problem with me as I am a woman and an easy pushover for kids. I voiced my suspicions to several of my BB friends in the studio and immediately I was ostracized and forced to apologize to my fellow instructor for starting a witch hunt. I considered quitting the studio but was persuaded by others not to quit. Two weeks later, one of the children came to me and asked for my help. His motive for telling me: the instructor was targeting his younger brother and didn't want the same happening to him. I asked the senior instructor what to do. He thought the child was lying, but slowly became convinced that the child was telling the truth. We went to my master, who didn't believe us. We told him that the child offered videotape evidence. He still didn't believe us but wanted to see the videotape and asked that it be brought to him. That day was agony for me. I was torn between duty to my master and duty to a greater power. I sat in an empty church from 11:00 am to 6:00 pm and asked God what to do. I'll never forget that day. The church was empty and yet I heard wind whistling through the aisles and the floorboards creaking. I'd always look up to see if someone was coming in, and yet no one was there. I called my friend whose father-in-law was a cop; he heard of my dilemma and called the police station himself. He told them I was coming in. So I did come in that night to talk to the police, supported by a very good BB friend. To the greatest credit of my senior instructor, he backed me up and came to the police station the next day with me. He saved my master and the studio from terrible repercussions. He took over the situation and did damage control. I was forced to stay at a friend's place in another city because the press were following me around. They got my name and phone number from the police reports. What happened in the end? The fellow instructor was sentenced to 37 years, but can get out in 17 on good behavior. Thank goodness for Megan's law. How are the children? 1) one dropped out of high school. His mother was so stressed, that she tried to commit suicide. She blames herself for not seeing what has happened. She is now takes anti-depressant drugs. 2) one child sold drugs, but has turned himself around. 3) one child brought a gun to school and I wrote a letter to principal explaining that he was really a good kid. 4) one child has gotten through with lots of support from his family and therapy. He moved to another city. 5) the younger brother has been in touch by coded email with the instructor. The parents approve because they want the child to understand what happened. This samechild sent hate email to one of his teachers and threatened to kill her. That one sure made the newspapers. None of the children want to remember that awful period. I suppose when they see me, they are reminded. I have lost touch with them but I hope they're doing okay. I hope this email helps people to recognize a child molester. You can go down to the police station, make an appointment to go through their files, and make sure that your coach or instructor is not a child molester. Good luck. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 20:38:30 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #218 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.