From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #220 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 6 April 2001 Vol 08 : Num 220 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: Instructors and children the_dojang: Testing the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #218 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #219 the_dojang: Re: Even More on organizations the_dojang: organizations the_dojang: stagnation the_dojang: Schools in San Jose area the_dojang: HKD stuff Re: the_dojang: Schools in San Jose area the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 10:32:53 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Instructors and children Dear Anonymous: Let me start by saying I am the father of two daughters, have taught Sunday-school, led a Young Astronauts program for grade-school kids, and frequently am asked to work with children in TKD classes I assist with. I have tried to always be aware of the concerns of parents and the sadly all-too-real possibilities that not every adult in the lives of children has good intentions. I am sorry you had to go through the experience you did, and am glad you had the strength to deal with it. Far too many would have stayed in denial. One remark you made stood out, though: > The parents had no problem with me as > I am a woman and an easy pushover for kids. > I think this points out how easy it is for all of us as parents or just observers to fall into stereotyping and just assume the male is a bad guy, the female is a good guy. It's true the statistics are extremely lopsided on the side of male molestors. Let's just remember that to remain vigilent regarding our children we cannot make ANY assumptions. Regards, Kerry WTF TKD ( and grandfather-to-be sometime around Sunday ) > ------------------------------ > > From: Ray Terry > Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 20:37:48 PDT > Subject: the_dojang: personal experience (fwd) > > Forwarded message: > > Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 16:17:27 -0700 > To: Ray Terry > > > Thank you for the opportunity to contribute to your list. I prefer > to remain anonymous although many of the BBs reading this will > immediately recognize who I am. > > On the topic of doing background checks of martial arts instructors > in the dojang: I advocate this very strongly and wouldn't hesitate > to go through one myself. In my particular situation, it probably > wouldn't have helped, because the instructor did not have a previous > criminal record. > > Almost 10 years ago, one of our instructors was arrested for > molesting our students, particularly the 10-11 year old boys. I was > a fellow instructor at the time and had taught many of the children's > classes, which to this day continues to be my specialty. I had > become very suspicious of this instructor early on, but did not have > proof, although I did consider the following to be very odd: > ------------------------------ From: "Kenneth W. Legendre" Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 10:22:28 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Testing Hello All As the list is discussing testing practices I'm becoming more nervous as I wait until tomorrow evening to test for my 3rd Dan. Testing fees for that test were $250. Because I help teach for my instructor I only had to pay half. Either way I feel that $250 is a reasonable fee considering all the things you get. Beautiful certificate! OK so there isnt a whole lot physically to show for your test. For those of you who have a school though testing is like getting a college degree. Would you pay $250 for your bachelors degree? Would you pay $500 for your masters? How much would you be willing to pay for a Ph.D. I'm pretty sure most of you would be willing to pay a whole lot more than $1000. The whole testing process for our school is not really about what you know. It's more about how you respond under that pressure. I've watched many talented martial artists get in front of the testing board and forget how to do chun ji. Not a very good response to pressure. Why put them under this pressure? When will you need your martial arts experience most? When your life depends on it and the pressure is at its highest. Put those testees under that pressure and see them sweat. Their life may depend on it one day. Just my couple of cents Ken Legendre 2nd Dan (Hopefully soon to be 3rd) innae@netexpress.net ------------------------------ From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 12:14:13 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #218 Many thanks for the honesty and candidness of the woman who contributed the molestation story. God bless you for your efforts and courage. Last summer, at a rather large tournament, a woman frantically ran into the bathroom calling out her daughter's name. The child, almost 6 years old, exclaimed, "Oh, I am safe. THESE ARE KARATE PEOPLE, Mommy." The mother looked at me with a befuddled grin. "What do you say to that?" she said, "She is so innocent." I remember thinking, "There's a prime target." The naive, trusting young child. God help the child who believes all persons in positions such as MA instructor, officer, teacher, etc., are good natured. Neither Karate or Law can protect every child. I am going to ask permission to teach an "Awareness" program at our school, perhaps have the children sign an agreement w/ a parent or guardian to tell that person when they suspect anyone has wronged them. A good BB friend once told me, "Knowledge is the best defense." ------------------------------ From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 12:35:09 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #219 This is a site categorized by state, that links you to police "Molestation/Sexual Offender" resources. Some states include photographs, description of offenses and a place to report parol violations. http://www.always-safe.com/sexoffenders.html - -Cheree ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 11:35:23 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Even More on organizations Dear Rudy: "...I agree we might not need all these similar arts; however, we must allow enough freedom in our art to let it evolve and grow. You and Ray singled out several Masters as legitimate contributors, imagine if we had stifled them from making their contribution. Just WHAT do you think you would be practicing today if that had happened?..." You know, Rudy, I think if I had to distill out the essence of a lot of my posts and contributions, what you shared is exactly where I am coming from. In my art, Hapkido, there is so much material and so many practitioners that we couldn't help but grow and evolve--- if that was what people were about. The burr that I have had under my saddle for the last few posts is that people I have cited SAY they want the best for Hapkido, and they Preach about having the best for Hapkido and they pontificate about their intentions for Hapkido, but their behaviors always come back to the same base motivations of gratification and financial success. Ask any of the 9th and 10th degree BB you are familiar with about the goals for MA training and they will regale you with sermons about polishing character and subduing passions. But-- you can't get GM Myung to sit down with GM Ji, or GM Chang to talk to GM Myung. Each person wants to be the top stone in their particular pyramid and the rest of it is posturing.Does this strike anyone but me as gross hypocrisy? Think about this for a second. GM Choi started teaching about 1947 and GM Ji started his school in about 1963, right? So for more than 35 years we have been practicing Hapkido and we still don't have a consistent, unified curriculum. Wouldn't that be growth---if we were all singing off the same page? We still don't speak with a single voice on important issues like certification and licensure, insurance, testing and certification. Wouldn't that be evolution? Rudy, you yourself said that you had to actually disavow organizations in order to run your show without intrusion. Many of the Hapkido practitioners still practice at what is essentially a "sool" level of sophistication, and people routinely introduce and delete weapons, techniques and associations or affiliations with relatively little thought to the art (thought they are careful to still call it "hapkido" or "hwa rang" or whatever). People claim affiliation with GM Choi because they spent a seminar, a weekend, a day, or had coffee with him. Where is the evolution of Hapkido in this? In some arts like Kendo/kenjitsu, or Kumdo/Kum-Bup or Daito-ryu people get together and actually examine what it is that they are doing and why things are done one-way over another. In Hapkido, after 35 years, we still seem to be at the level of still trying to decide just what constitutes the actual animal itself. I am waiting for the evolution. People like our various leaders say thats what is going on but I just don't see it. I'm still waiting. Just one last thought before I close out. Please don't ask me what I'M doing to help Hapkido evolve. I know that is a popular rejoinder and I could talk about the DOCHANG JOURNAL project as my little contribution. But I don't carry or purport to swing half the weight somebody like GM Ji or GM Myung or the heads of any of these well-advertised organizations have. We have been talking about fees and there is always talk about loyalty, support, tradition and credibility. If evolution is what this is all about I could do with a little less horse s*** and a lot more horse power. Thanks, Rudy. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "ISA CONSULTATION GROUP" Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 12:41:54 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: organizations I agree with what Rudy said. For myself, I started a national organization back in 1990 and had full backing from several Grandmasters. I teach nothing new, nothing that hasn't been done before. But the one thing I do now is offer individual FREE membership into an International organization, an organization that will certify them in their chosen art at no more than postage fees. The same goes for School and Country charters. I remember paying $500.00 for a 3rd dan in TKD through a Korean Grandmaster. That was just to get WTF certification. I don't need WTF certification now and I know there are others who don't need it. So I charge $25.00 for a black belt certificate for any degree of black belt, as long as they can prove it to me and my Board of directors. I may be cheap, but I ain't easy;-) George Petrotta http://taekwondo.4dw.com http://hapkido.4dw.com http://gpetrott.webjump.com ISA CONSULTATION GROUP includes ISA Martial Arts, ISA Web Design and ISA Consulting Services! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 11:06:24 PDT Subject: the_dojang: stagnation > Think about this for a second. GM Choi started teaching about 1947 and GM Ji > started his school in about 1963, right? I think it was ~1957. > Wouldn't that be growth---if we were all singing off the same page? Would it be growth to have all universities in the world (country? state?) teach an identical curriculum for those obtaining an MBA? Of course not, imo. It would be just the opposite... stagnation. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Bernard G Redfield Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 15:54:53 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Schools in San Jose area Hello List, I have a good friend looking to start Tang Soo Do with here daughter in the San Jose CA area, here is the discription for area she gave me for looking up schools,she would prefer not to go in cold so I said I would help. zip code 95128. Some major intersections: Hamilton/Bascom 17/280 near Campbell near Los Gatos west San Jose Camden / Union near Willow Glen area I told her I would see what I could do, if ther is a good program in the area that is not TSD send it along too, its her call in the end ,I told her to go with the school that feels the most comfortable to her. Thanks Bernard ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 13:22:51 PDT Subject: the_dojang: HKD stuff FWIW... Just a repost. Ray ------------------------------------------------------------------ History of Hapkido Yong-Sool Choi (1904-1986), one of the most influential people in the development of modern Korean martial arts, was born in Chung Buk province in Korea. Choi's parents died when he was very young, and when he was eight or nine years old he was taken to Japan from Korea by a Japanese candymaker. Choi eventually became very homesick and was ultimately abandoned by the candymaker. He began to wander the streets as a beggar and was regularly assulted by other children. A Japanese man took notice of Choi because of the unique situation he is in - being so young and having to beg for food and money. This man took Choi in and eventually adoped him. Before the adoptive father sent Choi to school to get an education, his name was changed to Tatujutu Yoshida. The attempt at education was not a successful one because Yoshida (Choi) did not speak enough Japanese to understand the teachers. He became disinterested in school work and often wound up in fights with the other school-children. Consequently, he was asked if he wanted to get a regular education or learn to fight. He chose fighting, and was enrolled in a Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jutsu (pronounced Dae-Dong-Ryu Hap-Ki-Sool in Korean) dojo with Sokaku Takeda (1860-1943), where he trained for almost 30 years. Sensing that Japan was loosing WWII, Yoshida (Choi) began to make plans to return home to Korea -- and did so in the winter of 1945. Upon his return home, he changed his name back to Yong-Sool Choi. Somehow during the trip home, Choi lost a piece of his luggage, which unfortunately contained his money and the certificates which were proof of his training with Takeda Sensei. Because of a lack of money, choi decided to stay in Tae Gu rather than to return to his home in Chung-Buk. After a year of working as a bread salesman on the street, Choi managed to save enough money to begin raising pigs. In order to feed his pigs, he would get up early every morning and travel to the Suh Brewery Company to obtain free leftover grain chaff. In 1947, Bok-Sub Suh, who was a black belt in Yudo and the president of the Suh Brewery Company, witnessed a fight from his second floor office window, where he watched in amazement as one man defended himself against several attackers, with little effort. He was very impressed and curious about what he had observed and sent his office clerk to bring this man to his office. The man turned out to be Yong-Sool Choi. Suh asked Choi what kind of martial arts he practiced. Without really answering the question, he asked Suh to grab him by the lapel. When Suh grabbed the lapel, Choi easily executed an elbow lock and threw Suh to the floor. Suh immediately grabbed Choi's lapel again, and he was simply thrown to the floor a second time. After being defeated twice, Suh begged for Choi to teach him, promising him more free chaff, as well as paying him money for lessons. When Choi agreed, Suh prepared a dojang at the brewery where Choi then had the opportunity to teach what he had studied for so many years in Japan. It was during the next few years that Choi would begin to establish himself as an outstanding and well respected martial arts instructor. He called his art Yoo Sool (Korean pronunciation of Ju-Jutsu). A few minor modifications were made, but for the most part, he was teaching exactly what he had learned from Takeda Sensei. He did, however, slowly begin to add techniques, including some kicks and weapon techniques. In 1954, Bok-Sub Suh was involved in an incident where he defended his father, Dong-Jin Suh, who was up for election to the National Assembly. A fight ensued against a few gangsters, and using kicks learned through his training in Yoo Sool, Suh defeated the gangsters. After some thought, Suh decided to suggest to Choi that the name Yoo Sool be changed to Yoo Kwon Sool, to represent the fact that besides joint locks and throwing techniques, they were also practicing strikes and kicks. After the end of the Korean war, while Choi was still teaching Bok-Sub Suh, he opened his own provate school at his house and began to teach a few other students. This was in 1953. Some of the students during this period had already founded, or have gone on to found their own martial art styles. These include, Hwang-Kee (Tang-Soo-Do), In-Hyuk Suh (Kuk Sool Won), Joo-Bang Lee (Hwa Rang Do), and Han-Jae Ji (Hapkido). - ---Ji, Han-Jae--- Han-Jae Ji was born in 1936 in Angong, Korea. He bagan his martial arts training in Yoo Sool with Choi in 1949 at the age of 13. He trained full time with Choi until 1956 when he moved back to his home city of Andong from Seoul. When Ji was just eighteen, he began to train with a man who he refers to as Taoist Lee. Taoist Lee, trained Han-Jae Ji primarily in various methods of meditation, and in the use of the Jang-Bong (6' staff), the Dan-Bong (short stick), and in Korean Taek-Kyun kicking. During the same period, a lady monk known to Ji only as "grandma" taught him spritual power for almost five years. In Andong, Han-Jae Ji, then a 3rd degree, opened his first dojang which he called An Moo Kwan and began to teach Yoo Kwon Sool. After apporximately nine months in Andong, Ji decided to relocate to Seoul in September of 1957. He stayed in a boarding house in Wang Shim Ri. The son of the owner of the boarding house, Duk-Kyu Hwang, became his first deciple at his new dojang, called Sung Moo Kwan. Ji was also able to open an additional small dojang at a neck-tie factory where he had only a few students. These students were mainly from Han Yang University. Eventually, Ji's skills and teaching became even better and he decided to move to a more suitable location. He rented a room from a man named Bong-Ah Ko, a local boxing instructor, and for the first time had access to a regular mat where he could conduct his classes. In 1958, Ji moved his school to Joong Boo Shi Jang where he continued teaching until April of 1960. It was during this period when Ji began to piece together the Yoo Sool (Yoo Kwon Sool) teachings of Grandmaster Choi, with the methods of meditation, the Taek-Kyun kicking techniques, and the weapons techniques learned from Taoist Lee, along with the spiritual training he received from "grandma," to formulate his own style of martial art, for which he chose the name "Hapkido." he had originally thought of calling it "Hapki-Yoo-Kwon-Sool," but decided against that, feeling it was too long of a name. He thought of other martial arts he had heard of, such as Tae-Kwon-Do, Kong-Soo-Do, Soo-Bak-Do, etc., where the word 'do' was being used instead of 'sool'. He liked this idea because the word 'do' means a path to follow, or a way of life, rather than simply meaning 'technique', as 'sool' implies. The name hapkido was chosen in 1959, and has been used ever since. The word itself can be translated as the "way of coordinated power." Where "hap" means to unify or coordinate, "ki" means mental and/or physical energy, and "do" means a way of life, or the 'path' or 'way' of coordinating your mental and physical energy into one entity. During a conversation I had with (Grandmaster) Han-Jae Ji, in his personal suite after the first day of a grueling seminar, it was related to me that after he chose the name Hapkido to represent his art, he gave this name to his teacher, Yong-Sool Choi to use - out of respect. Choi taught under the name Hapkido until his death in 1986, even though he did not teach the complete curriculum -- leaving out the majority of the kicking techniques, and a lot of the weapons techniques. The actual hapkido curriculum was not finalized until the early 1960's after a fellow student of Grandmaster Choi's, Moo-Woong Kim, moved to Seoul to visit and study with his friend Han-Jae Ji. He stayed for approximately eight months, during which he practiced with Ji, and gave his input and advice regarding which kicking techniques should be adopted (Kim also had previous Taek-Kyun training). The only significant difference that evolved from this collaboration was that Ji taught that a low spinning kick be done with only the ball of the supporting foot touching the ground; whereas, Kim teaches that the knee and foot are both on the ground while the kick is executed. In May of 1961, the Korean government was overthrown by General Chung-Hee Park (1917-1979), an action which ultimately resulted in his being elected President. In 1962, Ji moved to Kwan Chul Dong, in a space in back of the Hwa Shin Department Store. By this time, he had built his Sung Moo Kwan school up, and it was financially strong. With assistance from Major Dong-Nam Lee, Ji was given permission to instruct the Military Supreme Council in Hapkido techniques. Ji then received a government job teaching Hapkido to the Presidential Security forces (a position he would hold until Park's death in 1979). During this time, he moved his school to Suh Dae Moon (West Gate section), which he felt would give him greater exposure to the public. In the early 1960's, Chung-Hee Park lifted import restrictions banning Japanese goods from Korea, after which, Ji came across a book on Japanese Aikido. Ji saw that the Japanese characters for Aikido were the same as for Hapkido. Discouraged that a Japanese art had the "same name" as Hapkido, he decided to drop the "Hap" from it's name, calling his art simply, "Kido." On September 2, 1963, the Korean government finally granted a Charter through the Ministry of Education to the Korea Kido Association. They were granted the right to supervise and regulate the standards of teaching as well as promotion requirements of Black Belts in thirty-one different Korean martial arts. The first chariman of the Korea Kido Association was Yong-Sool Choi. The Association tried to promote martial arts to public school students, police officers, and to military officials. In 1965, Han-Jae Ji left the Korea Kido Association and established the Korea Hapkido Association. There were several reasons for this. First, the Korea Kido Association appointed Jung-Yoon Kim as Secretary-general. Kim, who was a university graduate, dominated the policies of the Association, and Ji did not like this situation. Second, the students that were trained in Sung Moo Kwan under the name Hapkido, did not like the new term, "Kido." They continued to call their martial art Hapkido, and continued to teach it the way they learned it. The students did not feel that it mattered that a Japanese art had the same name. And lastly, Han-Jae Ji was appointed Chief Hapkido Instructor for the President's Security Forces and had become a powerful person. This power translated into the ability to successfully operate his own organization without help from others who were being less than ethical in their lives as martial artists. Three dominant Hapkido organizations began to immerge during the next few years. These included the Korea Hapkido Association (founded in 1965 by Han-Jae Ji), the Korea Hapki Association (founded in 1969 by Jae-Nam Myung), and the Korean Hapkido Association (founded in 1971 by Moo-Woong Kim). Eventually, in 1973, the leaders of these organizations met and agreed to unify their associations as one. The new association was named Dae Han Min Kuk Hapkido Hyub Hwe (Republic of Korea Hapkido Association). In 1984, Grandmaster Han-Jae Ji moved to the United States and founded Sin Moo Hapkido. That same year, Grandmaster Moo-Woong Kim resigned from the Republic of Korea Hapkido Association, and founded the International Hapki Federation. Grandmaster Se-Lim Oh became the president of the Republic of Korea Hapkido Association, and late in 1984, he renamed it the Korea Hapkido Association (the name Ji had used in the 60's) and later to the Korea Hapkido Federation. Today there are still three dominant Hapkido organizations in Korea. These include, the Korea Kido Association (In-Sun Seo, Pres.), the Korea Hapkido Federation (Se-Lim Oh, Pres.), and the International Hapki Federation (Moo-Woong Kim, Pres.). The Korea Hapkido Federation is still the leader in Korea, and the graduates of the Sung Moo Kwan make up the majority of it's instructors. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 13:34:55 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Schools in San Jose area > I have a good friend looking to start Tang Soo Do with here daughter in > the San Jose CA area, here is the discription for area she gave me for > looking up schools,she would prefer not to go in cold so I said I would > help. > zip code 95128. Some major intersections: > > Hamilton/Bascom > 17/280 > near Campbell > near Los Gatos > west San Jose > Camden / Union > near Willow Glen area > > I told her I would see what I could do, if ther is a good program in the > area that is not TSD send it along too, its her call in the end ,I told > her to go with the school that feels the most comfortable to her. That corner is a couple miles from where I live. I know of no TSD near there... perhaps up in the city of Fremont at David Bell's dojang. A small school, but rather good, imo. I think he is with JC Shin's org. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 13:35:30 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #220 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. 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