From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #221 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 6 April 2001 Vol 08 : Num 221 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #218 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #218 the_dojang: BB Fees the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #220 Re: the_dojang: Schools in San Jose area the_dojang: interesting the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #217 the_dojang: Daitoryu stuff the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ConcordTKD@aol.com Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 16:20:17 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #218 "You need a KKW 1st Dan to compete in national and international USTU tournaments." David N. Beck Internet:dbeck@usa.alcatel.com Could you forward that requirement to me or post in on the net? John Murphy A-3-756 ITF/USTF TKD ------------------------------ From: ConcordTKD@aol.com Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 16:31:08 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #218 "Interesting ... and I was going to open up a school in Vegas over 6 years ago (wouldn't have had a problem with the checks and stuff ... but would have had a hard time with the 3 month waiting time, tho) ... 4 years ago it was booming out there as far as karate schools ... went back there last year and 3/4 of them are gone !" So it sounds like the bariers to entry worked then. The owners of the big schools will be the ones that make out on this deal. In the end the small guy who cares will not be able to set up a school and the parent will be paying much higher prices, and spending more time travling to the few schools that are left, to put thier kids into larger classes so they can get less attention. What a concept. You would think it would have been done in Massachsetts first. John Murphy A-3-756 A-3-756 ------------------------------ From: Kas001@aol.com Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 17:51:58 EDT Subject: the_dojang: BB Fees >Would you pay $250 for your >bachelors degree? Would you pay $500 for your masters? How much would >you be >willing to pay for a Ph.D. I'm pretty sure most of you would be willing to >pay a whole lot more than $1000. While I am not opposed to reasonable testing fees, I think there is a flaw in this logic. The students presumabley have been paying, class or matt fees all along. That is the the cost of their "degree", just like tuition is the cost of a university degree (& of course blood, sweat, and tears in both cases). If you want to charge $100 - $200 for the certificate, belt, unifom, an extra judge(s), etc. that's ok (even the university usually has a 50 or 75 dollar diploma fee). But it doesn't justify these $500 or $1000 fees. (The only exception I have heard of might be if judge had to be flow in from out of town and the expense was legit.) However, all that having been said, if a student knows about the fees when they sign up, it is let the buyer beware time. I may not agree with the 500 - 1000 (I have even heard $1700) fees, but this is a free market economy. If I came across one of these places, I would move on, but each person must decide that for themselves. IMHO, - ---Kim ------------------------------ From: Todd Miller Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 18:11:08 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #220 Where is the evolution of Hapkido in this? In some arts like Kendo/kenjitsu, or Kumdo/Kum-Bup or Daito-ryu people get together and actually examine what it is that they are doing and why things are done one-way over another. In Hapkido, after 35 years, we still seem to be at the level of still trying to decide just what constitutes the actual animal itself. I am waiting for the evolution. People like our various leaders say thats what is going on but I just don't see it. I'm still waiting. I have to agree with Bruce here. It seems that so many (not all) are afraid to look at Hapkido in this way. Maybe because it is hard for high ranking individuals to realize that maybe they are missing a piece of the puzzle. There are so many egos out there this kind of dialog may never happen. I want to mention a word of thanks to Bruce for his honesty and also to Mike T., Javier A. and Rick Nabors for there willingness to exchange and explore some of the differences between Jungki Hapkido and Sin Moo Hapkido in a freindly fashon. BTW I am looking forward to getting together with YALL down in Florida at the end of the month. One more thing. I have mentioned before that the founder of Hapkido Choi, Yong Sool taught different things to different students. From what I have learned he taught a principle based curriculum rather than a technique based curriculum which explains why he taught varied tech. because people learn differently. There are many different tech. that teach a principle of off-balencing or a principle of movement and I think the question is where should the focus be? On the tech. or what the tech. does? or both? From what I have learned Choi, Yong Sool's teaching was very basic techniques and then variations of those basic movements. Just some thoughts. Todd > > Wouldn't that be growth---if we were all singing off the same page? > > Would it be growth to have all universities in the world (country? state?) > teach an identical curriculum for those obtaining an MBA? Of course not, imo. > It would be just the opposite... stagnation. > ------------------------------ From: Bernard G Redfield Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 20:30:02 -0400 Subject: Re: the_dojang: Schools in San Jose area <> That's great thanks!, how about other styles in the area, anything reccomendable for a looksee? I would like her to have a good overview : ) Bernard ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 18:37:15 PDT Subject: the_dojang: interesting http://www.taekkyon.or.kr/en/ Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Neal Konecky Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 19:05:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #217 I read, with great interest, this debate about whether MA instructors should be certified as non sexual predators. I am also a MA instructor. It is something that I take very seriously. I can not help but wonder about a society, that in effect deems me a sexual threat, unless I can prove that I am not. (Which, btw, all that certification means is that an actual predator has not been caught.) While I realize that this is an unpopular opinion, judging by the support that I have seen for the idea, this proposal seems quite a bit like guilty until proven innocent. Should this measure come to pass, I quite likely will stop teaching children. Not because I have anything to hide (I do not)but because I do not want to be in the position of having to prove that something did not happen. Parents are allowed to watch when I teach. To me, that is sufficient. Parents are allowed to watch when I teach. To me, that is sufficient. I will not waive those rights to make someone more comfortable. It is the same in the workplace. Because a negative is virtually impossible to prove, I refuse to be in a room alone with a female client, which is sometimes construed by them to be a lack of confidentiality. I will not be in a room alone with my secretary. Parents are allowed to watch when I teach. To me, that is sufficient. Just some food for thought. Neal Konecky __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 20:32:37 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Daitoryu stuff Info. Another repost... Ray - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Daito-Ryu is one of the oldest martial arts in Japan, and can be traced back from the Takeda Family to the secret art of the Minamoto clan. However the history and birth of Daito-Ryu is actually shrouded in mystery. Since the art was a family secret of the clan, there are no documents existing from old times. Everything pertaining to the art was transmitted orally from generation to generation. Yoshimitsu Shinra Saburo Minamoto (1045-1127) is generally credited as being the founder of Daito-Ryu. It's known that he called himself "Saburo of Daito", after the name of his residence, and place where he trained in martial arts. He developed the kansetsu (joint locking) techniques of Jujutsu by dissecting and studying the cadavers of executed criminals, and samurai slain in the three year battle of 1083. He also gained his first insight which led to his discovery of the root concept of Aiki by watching the silk spider catch it's prey. Later in 1573 Kunitsugu Takeda a relative of the famous Shingen Takeda moved his family to Aizu, and from there, the history becomes more clear. This is where the traditional art, then called Goshikinai took form. Inside the Aizu castle it was secretly taught and practiced by the Takeda Samurai, and the Shogun's bodyguards. It was passed down from generation to generation within the Takeda family, until modern times. It was not until during the Meiji era (1868-1912) that the art began to be called by the name of Daito-Ryu. >From Jujutsu to Aiki: The oldest written document mentioning Daito-Ryu dates to September 1910. The word "Aiki" was not mentioned in this document. This word appeared for the first time in "the secret essence of Aikijujutsu" written in 1922. Therefore it's thought that maybe the word Aiki was used for the first time between 1910 and 1922. Perhaps the first time Sokaku taught "Aiki" was in 1912 when he arrived at the invitation of Taiso Horikawa to stay at his inn in Kitami and proclaimed, "I would like to teach Aikijujutsu! Can you gather some people please?" The terms "Kiai-jutsu" and "Aiki-Jutsu" very quickly became popular around the end of the Meiji era and beginning of the Taisho era (1912-1926). The reason for this is that Sokaku Takeda further developed the "Daito-Ryu" techniques he learned from Chikanori Hoshina (Tanomo Saigo) and added the word "Aiki" to it. It is believed therefore, that Sokaku Takeda was the true founder and creator of "Aikijujutsu" which he then added to Daito-Ryu. Since Sokaku came to define the essence of his abilities as coming from the technique of Aiki, he no doubt began to speak of it as the essence of Daito-Ryu whenever he was teaching. Sokaku himself used the technique of Aiki and incorporated it's principles into his jujutsu techniques to make himself undefeatable. But, even though he popularized the use of the term, it doesn't mean that all his students learned "Aikijujutsu". They were told about Aiki, but only learned Jujutsu. Aiki was a jealously guarded secret of Sokaku's Daito-Ryu. Sokaku generally taught only Jujutsu, or Kenjutsu techniques. Only a few people among the upper echelon of his 30,000 students were truly initiated into the mysteries of Aiki. It can be seen from photo's taken by Takuma Hisa that Sokaku's Aiki was still heavily influenced by Jujutsu. The many photo's show Sokaku twisting his opponents with force, using numerous joint-locking techniques. Many are very similar to Aikido. These Jujutsu techniques are not to be confused with Aiki no Jutsu or Aikijujutsu. Sokaku Takeda Sensei discovered and/or created Aiki through his vast, and intimate knowledge of the essence of martial arts, his expertise with the sword, and other weapons, jujutsu, and strategy (heiho). Towards the end of his life he became paralyzed on one side, but he still continued to teach, and his Aikijujutsu continued to improve. He became able to throw opponents down with only one finger. Only months before his death in February 1943 the newspaper reported sensationally that the half paralyzed Sokaku had thrown a down a 6th dan Judoka at the Muroran police station! But during his life he only began to break the surface of the full potential of Aiki, and he died before he was able to completely wipe out the afterimages of Jujutsu. Sokaku Takeda collapsed while he was teaching in Aomori on April 25th, and died at the age of 86. It was actually the people who succeeded Sokaku, who sharpened and polished the techniques of Daito-Ryu. His students had to learn these techniques at Sokaku's high level. They had to preserve and develop them by themselves, because the development from "Jujutsu" to "Aiki" was made only by Sokaku's generation, and also because many of them learned from Sokaku for only a short period of time. Now, there are only a few valid schools, or branches which evolved from Sokaku Takeda's Daito-Ryu. They each have traditions and techniques which are completely different from each other. It is known that only a handful of Sokaku's closest students, qualified for and received the certificate of "The acting instructor" or full teaching license. There are only a few authentic successors of Daito-Ryu to whom the art has been handed down, and who have each created their own divergent schools. They are as follows: Tokimune Takeda (1916-1993) was the third son, and accepted successor of Sokaku Takeda. He established the Daitokan dojo in 1953, and created Daito-Ryu Aiki Budo as the mainline continuation of his father's art. Tokimune Sensei classified the traditional Daito-Ryu Jujutsu techniques, and incorporated the Onoha Itto-Ryu sword school into this system of Daito-Ryu Aiki Budo. Taiso Horikawa was the owner of a gold mine, and an inn keeper in Kitami, Hokkaido. Taiso was an expert in Shibukawa-Ryu Jujutsu, who met Sokaku in 1912. Kodo Horikawa (1894-1980) was the eldest son of Taiso. He began his training in Daito-Ryu first with his father, and then in 1914 directly with Sokaku. He founded the Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu Kodokai in 1950. Kodo Horikawa taught Seigo Okamoto (b.1925 ), who became head of the Tokyo Branch of the Kodokai, when he moved there in 1977. After the death of Horikawa Sensei, he founded the Roppokai branch of Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu in 1980, according to his teacher's wishes. The Kodokai is now led by Shihan Yusuke Inoue (b.1932). The Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu Takumakai was formed around Takuma Hisa (1896-1980) by his students in 1975, and is now led by Shihan Hakaru Mori (b.1931). Hisa Sensei first learned Daito-Ryu from Ueshiba Sensei, and then later became a direct student of master Sokaku. The Takumakai is dedicated to the preservation of both Ueshiba's and Sokaku's techniques. Yukiyoshi Sagawa (b.1902) is the only one of Sokaku Takeda's students who is still living. He runs a small private Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu dojo in Kodaira city. Kotaro Yoshida (1886-1964). Kotaro Yoshida's son, Kenji taught Yanagi-Ryu Aiki Bugei (a modified blend of Daito-Ryu, and traditional Yoshida family arts to Don Angier, now Soke of the system, and the top western authority on traditional samurai arts). Kotaro Yoshida was the one provided Morihei Ueshiba with an introduction to Sokaku Takeda in 1915. During the early 1960's he also taught Katsuyuki Kondo (now, the technical heir of Tokimune's mainline school) for a short time. Among his other students were famous Karate masters, Richard Kim, and the late Mas Oyama. Aikido was founded by Morihei Ueshiba (1883-1969) who up until 1936-7 taught Daito-Ryu Jujutsu, and then gradually developed the philosophical martial art first known as Aiki Budo, and after the war as Aikido. The technical basis of which, is based mostly on modified Daito-Ryu Jujutsu techniques, and kenjutsu. The continuation of Aiki today: Of these Daito-Ryu groups, the Roppokai Branch is uniquely dedicated to the preservation, development, and practice of high level Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu. The training consists of frank, detailed explanations of previously secret principles, combined with high repetitions of Aiki techniques executed rapidly over, and over again in order to intuitively grasp the essence of the art. Most of the more basic, traditional jujutsu and kansetsu waza are skipped in favor of the more difficult, advanced Aiki techniques. In closing, I would like to say that in order to learn Aiki, it must be experienced personally. You have to develop an intuitive sensitivity to perceive what's really happening at a very subtle level. Then it must be developed by more repeated experience, until it becomes completely natural. It requires the ability to completely and instinctively relax, and to calmly, and decisively meet any situation or attack without any tension, or emotional reaction. Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai is taught in a personal way in order to facilitate an experiential environment where the necessary attributes can be developed. This way, anyone with the humbleness to be taught, and the self-discipline to train himself can learn Aikijujutsu. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 20:38:14 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #221 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.