From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #225 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 9 April 2001 Vol 08 : Num 225 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #224 the_dojang: Re: background checks, etc the_dojang: Re: kkw dan fee controversy the_dojang: Re:Uniformity the_dojang: kkw dan fee non-controversy the_dojang: viva le difference the_dojang: RE: Testing/Kenneth W. Legendre the_dojang: RE: Organizations behind the scenes the_dojang: RE: MBA-s and Organizations the_dojang: world peace anytime soon? the_dojang: A new history of Hapkido on the web the_dojang: Interesting stuff on Martial Arts History in U.S. the_dojang: RE: Exchange Student Program the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Zaruba Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 18:46:40 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #224 > From: MissIllona@aol.com > Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 16:57:57 EDT > Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #223 > > In a message dated 4/8/2001 11:49:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > > << This is a bad analogy. I have a master's degree. I paid for my classes. I > paid for my books. I did _not_ have to pay extra money to take my mid-terms, > finals, or other tests for my classes. >> > > How much total did you pay for that Master's Degree, tho? > > Maybe the prices you pay are in the classes and equipment ... I know karate > schools that do it that way, also. It is disguised in the tuition and all > the other things "you have to have" to continue your education there. > > Illona To be perfectly honest, I pay more for one year of undergraduate classes at the University of North Dakota than I have paid for the seven years I have studied Kuk Sool Won, including testing fees, tournaments and seminars. I also received more personalized instruction as well as guidance and help from my instructor in six months than I have received during my entire seven years at UND for both my undergraduate and graduate work. You can't even begin to compare an academic education and a martial arts education money wise. Respectfully, Rich _______________________________________________________________________ Richard Zaruba Department of Anatomy & Cell Biology University of North Dakota School of Medicine 501 North Columbia Road P.O. Box 9037 Grand Forks, ND 58202-9037 zaruba@medicine.nodak.edu 701.777.3952 office 701.777.2576 lab 701.777.2477 fax ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 19:59:07 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: background checks, etc In a message dated 4/5/2001 1:13:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Perhaps being a Martial Artists exasperates my feelings. Protection, self-preservation...you look out for those you love. I will probably be a psycho parent : 0 ) >> no, cheree, youre not a psycho parent. we were getting some easter pics taken for our three month old the other day. as we sat there waiting, some crazy woman came in, started complaining about something, then huffed out. on her way, she shoved a little girl to the wall. if it were my little girl? i fear i would be in jail right now. i certainly like to think i would have the self control to subdue the woman without harm, but when it comes to my own child? i think, as alain would say, that i would go a bit fluffy on her. i was talking with illona about the background checks and the law up for votes. i can see the background checks being important. i would love to see them required for those who work with children. i've had three positions where i was required to have a background check. two in the security field and one for volunteering in the family court system with abused/neglected children. i had no qualms about it whatsoever. it seems a valid concern, though, that if this bill should become law, we would continue to be subject to additional scrutiny which might be unreasonable. illona mentioned instructors in las vegas who are already subject to some type of licensure which has put some out of business. *illona, i hope you dont mind me talking publicly about this, i just want to give credit where it's due in regard to information i've received. i worry about licensure committees, boards, investigators, commandoes, whatever we want to call them. i have concerns that these individuals, who have been suggested to be other martial artists of varying backgrounds, will politick their competition out of a license. "ray terry wants a license? i dunno, he once let someone tell the awful truth about me on his e-list once....DENIED." seems like it could be subject to arbitrary decision-making, not a professionally formed procedure of integrity. yes, lets protect the kids. and yes, lets protect ourselves. melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.cjmas.com Proud Sponsor of the 10th Annual 2001 US Open Taekwondo Championships ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 20:13:45 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: kkw dan fee controversy In a message dated 4/5/2001 1:13:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << It's not the case that all non-Koreans can afford the high fees, and therefore they're trying to suck more money out of us. I don't think they've got higher fees to discourage us from taking our dan tests either. Whatever their reasons were to charge us the way do..... well.... who's to say? >> well, in my opinion, _we_ are to say. i cant help but say that there are signs of ethnocentrism which should be investigated when koreans are never charged over $56.71 for a single rank all the way up to 9th dan, but americans are charged over $100 from third rank on. $56.71 for a korean to get a kukkiwon 9th dan vs. $700 for an american to get a kukkiwon 9th dan? the cost of living in korea is that bad? i dunno bout that. personally, i find it outrageous. reading the information on www.tkdreform.com just gets my blood boiling. i want our athletes to have the same opportunities as those taekwondoin from other countries. if our athletes have to pay so much more just to _participate_ in international and olympic wtf tkd (which requires kkw certification, yes?), does that seem quite fair to you? melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.cjmas.com Proud Sponsor of the 10th Annual 2001 US Open Taekwondo Championships ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 21:12:34 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re:Uniformity Dear Rudy: "...I too am not sure that all of us singing off the same page would help us grow. In fact, I'd hate to see a world where everything is as one. I love the varied cultures and scenery that is out there...." I agree that there are no guarentees. But after 35 years wouldn't you think something would have turned out so far? If you play golf, the game is uniform with consistent rules, equiptment, protocols etc. Nobody comes to a golf course in hockey gear and a tennis racquet, or uses NFL rules to govern play at the Open. Now, has the technology of the clubs and balls and course changed? Sure. Are there variances in play in Scotland versus Atlanta? Yep. But Golf is Golf, whether you play in Japan, Saudia Arabia, or Central Park. According to some Hapkido started with GM Choi and passed to GM Ji. How is it that we don't have a standard biomechanic if there is such a limited source? How come KHF tapes or not the same as IHF which are not the same as WHF materials--- if its all Hapkido? How come we have TKD schools stating that they teach Hapkido (Not "hapkido techniques" or "hoshinsul") and yet have no standard curriculum, no affiliation and no accreditation by anyone who knows better? If I want to coach baseball I have to have coaching hours and classroom work to back it up. If I want to referee in any sport I can think of there is a registration and certification process before a person says they are a ref. Judo requires this. TKD requires this. In fact, to be a teacher in the school system requires certification or licensing. Standardization to produce a standard basis from which people can then move to individualize their play to suit personal tastes, AFTER they can demonstrate the ability to absorb, understand and act on a standard body of information. You don't have one teacher teaching one kind of fist grade math and another teacher doing geography and calling it "math". I know what you are saying Rudy, and I would press for individuality and independence as well. But after 35 years we are still not sure of what constitutues "Hapkido" and I see something wrong here. Our leadership is painfully silent on these matters and I think that confirms my suspicions. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 18:56:51 PDT Subject: the_dojang: kkw dan fee non-controversy > reading the information on www.tkdreform.com just gets my blood boiling. Sorry, but I can't see how anyone could complain about $70 for KKW Il Dan, regardless of how much cheaper it is in Korea. Compare the KKW rates with the ITF rates... Complaining about how few non-Asian KKW 6th+ Dans there are around the world, now that I can see. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 20:48:47 PDT Subject: the_dojang: viva le difference > But after 35 years wouldn't you think something would have turned out so > far? I think we've been down this street before... > How come KHF tapes or not the same as IHF which are not the same as WHF > materials--- if its all Hapkido? Ummmm, well... Using your example of golf, why are there so many golf tapes and golf schools and golf magazines teaching players different ways to play a lie? Why are there so many different ways to teach how to swing a club, with every one being the best way? Why is there more than one accepted way to hit that little ball? Is it still golf? Yes.!. And don't - -even- get me started on frisbee golf, much less putt-putt? :) > But after 35 years we are still not sure of what constitutues "Hapkido" > and I see something wrong here. I can readily identify Hapkido when I see it. Can't you? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Lasich, Mark D." Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 08:00:08 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Testing/Kenneth W. Legendre I agree that comparing the cost of a Black Belt test/certification with the thought of a college degree is interesting. However, IF I only paid $1,000 for my PhD, that would be fine. Unfortunately, there's all those requirements and classes that preceed that - each of which have a dollar amount associated with them! While I don't have a PhD, I can honestly say that I don't recall my B.S. or my Masters (certificates) costing a single dollar! Don't get me wrong, again there were all the classes, labs, books, etc. along the way - so the total cost was quite high! For Black Belt testings, are not all the monthly fees, association fees, insurance, etc. still being paid as one progresses toward their Black Belt? Yes. As one gains in rank are they not contributing more to the school, if only by example of spirit and dedication? Yes. So then why, just because of the mystical thought of Black Belt, do fees rise astronomically? I can fully understand covering the cost of the certificate, a new belt, perhaps even cover some of the costs of visiting judges, but to pay much more merely because the of Dan ranking, seems in some cases to be taking advantage of those students. What a motivator: "Well, you've come this far. You know, if you only pay another $500, you can EARN your next rank." In fact, one might argue that as one rises in Dan level ranks, the amount that individual is contributing TO the organization is far out-weighing the cost of a new certificate or belt, and perhaps costs should go DOWN! Yes, some fees are appropriate, but, sorry, these excessive fees never quite seemed right to me! It seems that often times the student is faulted for focusing on the cost. However, when the proper time is at hand, it seems that some instructor's/organizations are equally as focused on the cost! Mark Lasich mark.lasich@alcoa.com ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 07:59:26 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Organizations behind the scenes Dear George: ".... For myself, I started a national organization back in 1990 and had full backing from several Grandmasters..." Thanks for stepping up the way that you did. I hope this comes out right because I don't want to put you on the spot. However, by identifying yourself as someone who has started their own "national organization" you present a unique opportunity, in that you may have noticed that many people who have done what you report doing are not exactly killing each other to step forward. So, within the context of having separated from a previous organization to start your own here are a couple questions stemming from earlier posts. 1.) Where do you believe your original organization failed to meet your needs as a MA or as a MA businessman? 2.) How do you feel that your organization addresses practitioners' needs better than that of your original organization? 3.) What conditions indicated to you that you would have been unable/unwilling to make these changes while still a member of your original organization? 4.) Would re-integration with your original organization be an option and what would it take to accomplish this? 5.) Have you experienced members splitting from your present organization to begin THEIR own "national organizations" and have you identified ways of reducing this pattern (given that you see this as a pattern that merits dissuasion)? 6.) Other than reduction of fees, in what ways are the patterns of cash flow different for you than for your original organization? By this I mean do the revenues that you collect for fees, and tuition in your organization serve purposes other than income for the organization? Thanks for your patience. I don't have any way of knowing if what you do with your organization is representative of most or even many organizations, but perhaps this will give list-kas a glimpse into the works and thoughts behind the scenes, yes? Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 08:26:55 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: MBA-s and Organizations Dear Ray: "...Would it be growth to have all universities in the world (country? state?) teach an identical curriculum for those obtaining an MBA? Of course not, imo. It would be just the opposite... stagnation...." I would agree with what you are saying here if what I was identifying or advocating was a kind of "lock-step uniformity". You are absolutely correct that we need room for innovation and variance and I support this as very healthy--- even necessary. What I believe that I am pressing for, however, is a basic uniformity that serves as the foundation from which one begins to vary and innovate. Using your example, although MBA programs vary across the country in philosophy and content there is an expectation when participating is an MBA program that what is engaged in is an activity distinctly different from, say, a Liberal Arts curriculum, or PhD in Asian studies, or Law school or Med school. Within the MBA community people may debate the relative merits of the "Japanese Consensus Model" vs the traditional Western Hierarchical Model, but nobody spends their enrollment working to decide just what it is that MBA program is. Getting back to Hapkido arts, we can debate variances like HwaRang Do vs Kuk Sool Won vs Sin Moo Hapkido. But stepping back away from the small picture to a larger frame there is no commonality of curriculum, or philosophy that allows for the comfortable exchange among various Hapkido arts. Perhaps this is by design so that the founding personalities can guard their respective territories and memberships. The history of MA development has always been based on comparison and experimentation following mastery of a particular Form (and sometimes even encouraged by ones' teacher). It seems like the time is long overdue for the Hapkido arts to settle on some commonalities which would contribute to healthy dialogue among the various Hapkido organizations. I still say that I don't understand why people Like GM Seo, GM Myung, GM Lee, GM Ji, GM Chang and others can't sit down and say, "yes, my particular style bends the pinkie this way, but the core material that comprises a Hapkido art would include A, B, C and D." These guys have been doing this stuff their whole lives. Do you really think this is too much to ask? Thanks, Ray. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 7:05:35 PDT Subject: the_dojang: world peace anytime soon? > Do you really think this is too much to ask? Even though most pray for it, just when do you think we'll have world peace? Can we move on??? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 08:38:24 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: A new history of Hapkido on the web Hi Folks, As part of my 3rd dan requirement for the USHF, I wrote a paper on the history of hapkido. It can be found at: http://php.indiana.edu/~burdickd/hkd_hist_1.html IU's server seems to be down this morning, so you'll probably have to wait an hour or two to get it. Remember you can find the rest of my material, including my tkd history at my homepage: http://php.indiana.edu/~burdickd Let me know what you think! Dakin Burdick, Ph.D. Associate Director Teaching Resources Center Indiana University at Bloomington Ballantine Hall 132 Bloomington, IN 47405 email: burdickd@indiana.edu www: http://php.indiana.edu/~burdickd phone: (812) 855-6869 fax: (812) 855-6410 ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 06:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Interesting stuff on Martial Arts History in U.S. Ray, very interesting stuff on your martial arts history in U.S. I would be interested to know who the author is (although you mentioned author unknown). Many of the points you mention bring back memories of the 60's and 70's when I started my training. I also noted with interest the GM Kang, West Virginia facts. I believe my instructor was a student of his. The facts appear to be accurate. I would love to see some of these earlier pioneers face some of today's fighters. Not saying who would win. But, it is true that at that time the concept of training was hard, hard, hard. Uncertain if you can get away with that in today's market. Thanks, McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 08:43:20 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Exchange Student Program Dear Todd: "....I want to mention a word of thanks to Bruce for his honesty and also to Mike T., Javier A. and Rick Nabors for there willingness to exchange and explore some of the differences between Jungki Hapkido and Sin Moo Hapkido in a freindly fashon. BTW I am looking forward to getting together with YALL down in Florida at the end of the month...." Thanks for the kudos. It gets kinda scary letting one's Self hang out there for everyone to know but I honestly believe that is the only way we are going to move ahead. As I write this I am thinking of Richard who regularly takes a grilling about what he does and where he is going with his efforts. Perhaps this is Karma from previous behaviors, or maybe its just the natural tendency of people to be wary of differences in their environment. To his credit, though, Richard seems to take it straight on and respond, and those responses are at least something that people can use to make decisions for themselves. In the matter of exchanging information with Rick and Javier you will, of course, be VERY careful not to disclose any Jung Ki Kwan secret techniques, right? :-) I have to tell you that this last weekend I had an opportunity to Work with Dakin down in Bloomington, Ind and was rewarded with an absolutely outstanding training experience. The high-point was being about to do some "flow-work" with Zack who is a Ba Qua Change practitioner whose skill was exceeded only by his patience with his training partner. There is still some sadness that these experiences can only be had through the individual efforts of one particular practitioner approaching another to exchange and grow rather than organizationally sponsored. Still until a better day comes, I would not have traded my Sunday morning for many others I have had. (Special thanks to Dakin Burdick and Zack for their every kindness.) I wish you as rewarding an experience in Florida. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 7:38:46 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #225 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.