From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #226 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 9 April 2001 Vol 08 : Num 226 In this issue: the_dojang: re: part 1, history of MA in USA the_dojang: Re: uniformity (or Stop making so much sense) the_dojang: Exchanging praise with Bruce the_dojang: Re: Hannaradang Party the_dojang: US History the_dojang: Korean Dog Soup the_dojang: Billing/Management Services the_dojang: Bruce Sim's comments the_dojang: RE: Identity Crisis the_dojang: Dr. Kim; Nat'l Hapkido Championships the_dojang: Signing Off the_dojang: Master's Degree the_dojang: school in Brighton, co the_dojang: the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:23:33 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: re: part 1, history of MA in USA Hi Ray, You wrote: > From: Ray Terry > Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 11:57:12 PDT > Subject: the_dojang: part 1, history of MA in USA > > Author unknown, but interesting. Part 1 of 2. > > History of American Martial Arts This history seems largely cribbed from John Corcoran and Emil Farkas's _Martial Arts: History, Traditions, People_, now known as _The Original Martial Arts Encyclopedia_. The sections on judo in that book were credited to Emelio ("Mel") Bruno but actually were mostly from Dennis Helm and others up in the Chicago area. You can find the updated version at: http://www.big-planet.org/Judo.html The karate histories in Corcoran & Farkas's work were taken from a series of articles (I think it was three) in _Black Belt_ in the 1970s. The problem with the Corcoran and Farkas book is that there were a large number of editing errors, and a great reliance on various experts to submit information. It was a VERY ambitious project and I think it was a great help to all of us, but you should always take it with a big grain of salt. It will send you in the right direction most of the time, but make sure you confirm the information as soon as possible. I'm sure it was a lot of work to write that book, which is why I generally prefer to see attribution on material, at least in the form of a bibliography. When I post my histories, I don't post the footnotes (which are extensive), as I save those for published works. But I do give a bibliography to show where the information was coming from. Take care, Dakin Burdick, Ph.D. Associate Director Teaching Resources Center Indiana University at Bloomington Ballantine Hall 132 Bloomington, IN 47405 email: burdickd@indiana.edu www: http://php.indiana.edu/~burdickd phone: (812) 855-6869 fax: (812) 855-6410 ------------------------------ From: cspiller@e3mil.com Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 07:31:20 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: uniformity (or Stop making so much sense) >>I agree that there are no guarentees. But after 35 years wouldn't you think something would have turned out so far? If you play golf, the game is uniform with consistent rules, equiptment, protocols etc. Nobody comes to a golf course in hockey gear and a tennis racquet, or uses NFL rules to govern play at the Open. Now, has the technology of the clubs and balls and course changed? Sure. Are there variances in play in Scotland versus Atlanta? Yep. But Golf is Golf, whether you play in Japan, Saudia Arabia,<< Sure, Bruce, start throwing logic into the mix. Don't you realize that we are talking about Martial Arts and that they are impervious to your cursed logic? Taekwon, Chris "Every Experience of Beauty Points to Infinity" Hans Urs von Balthasar _______________________________________________________________ Get your Private, Anti-Spam, Free Email at http://e3mil.com Your Internet Home for Your Faith, Your Life, and Your World! ------------------------------ From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:40:58 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Exchanging praise with Bruce Hi Guys, I try to avoid posting to everything in the digest, but it looks like today is the exception! I just wanted to say that it was a blast having Bruce Sims down at Bloomington. I don't often get the chance to practice that kind of flow drill, so it was a blast. And yes, Bruce, Zack is certainly a treasure! He's taking Chinese and he'll probably hop off to Beijing to train in the next couple years. I try to get in training with him when I can. His instructor and he are apparently working on a book on Baguazhang, to which I also look forward. See ya, Dakin Burdick, Ph.D. Associate Director Teaching Resources Center Indiana University at Bloomington Ballantine Hall 132 Bloomington, IN 47405 email: burdickd@indiana.edu www: http://php.indiana.edu/~burdickd phone: (812) 855-6869 fax: (812) 855-6410 > ------------------------------ From: "Michael Choi" Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 23:44:39 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Hannaradang Party By the way, I work at the National Assembly of Korea. The President of the Hannara-dang Party (also known as the Grand National Party) is Chairman Lee Hoi-Chang, for those of you with Hangul software, @LH8C" CQ@g4T. I work for one of his party members. I understand Dr. Hackworth's mistake. Lee is the surname and Hoi-chang is his given name. By the way, the English website for the Grand National Party is http://www.hannara.or.kr/english/english.asp and Chairman Lee's website is http://www.leehc.com (this website is in Korean). Sincerely, Michael Choi Get 250 color business cards for FREE! at Lycos Mail http://mail.lycos.com/freemail/vistaprint_index.html ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 8:14:17 PDT Subject: the_dojang: US History > Many of the points you mention bring back memories of the 60's and > 70's when I started my training. I also noted with interest the GM Kang, > West Virginia facts. I believe my instructor was a student of his. The facts > appear to be accurate. FWIW, GM Kang's WV school was about 20 miles from where I grew up. I've met him, also had the chance to work out with Danny Lane at his school in Ashland, KY. Also trained once with Roger Carpenter when he visited my Eskrima instructor. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Michael Choi" Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 00:06:35 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: Korean Dog Soup There is a big, big misunderstanding about dog soup, in Korean Bo-shim-tang. Koreans do not eat any dogs. The dogs for Boshimtang are specially breeded and raised to be eaten (like cattle). They're eaten in Korea's humid and sweltering summer after exhausting hard labor. It restores energy. When I first heard that Koreans eat dog, I freaked out too, but now that I understand the why and how, it's just the same as eating cows, chickens, pigs, and turkey. No big deal. By the way, there are Koreans who do not eat dog and these days raising dogs as parts is very, very popular. Heck, owners dye their dogs hair in flourescent colors! Sincerely, Michael Get 250 color business cards for FREE! at Lycos Mail http://mail.lycos.com/freemail/vistaprint_index.html ------------------------------ From: Charles Richards Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 08:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Billing/Management Services Dear Ray, I was very pleased with IFC EasyPay as my gut feeling is anti-contract. I know others who are pleased with EFC, but other than looking over their intro package (which was professional and informative), I have no dealings with them myself. Someone refered me to PPSBilling and I love their Flex-A-Bill system. One sheet of paper to sign up allows my prospect to pick ongoing/term (yes, I'm contradicting myself as a term agreement is a contract), packages, type of payment and date of payment. Talk about eliminating objections. The first existing student I showed it to thought it was a great idea. As I get started, I will update on how well the online updates work, and turn-around time, but I have a friend who was very pleased with this feature. In the past I found NAPMA to be too much info to read and apply before the next update came, but I liked their camera ready add campaigns. PPS offers NAPMA discounts based on enrollment, so as I grow, I will look at re-enrolling (at a discount). Regards, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TSD __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Michael Choi" Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 00:31:52 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: Bruce Sim's comments I wish all the grandmasters would agree, but I think they have too much pride and stubbornness, plus too much monetary interests invested in their organizations to ever give way to a uniform set of standards. By the way, I think that Oh Se-lim's "The Korea Hapkido Federation" claim to fame is that they certificates are the only ones recognized by the Korean government, which in practical terms means that when one joins the military or the police, they are recognized as having hapkido rank. Dan certificates from other organizations will not be recognized by the police or military. Does that make the true hapkido organization? I don't think so. As the saying goes, real hapkido is proven on the mat! Sincerely, Michael Get 250 color business cards for FREE! at Lycos Mail http://mail.lycos.com/freemail/vistaprint_index.html ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 10:28:57 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Identity Crisis Dear Ray: "...I can readily identify Hapkido when I see it. Can't you?..." We may be talking about two different aspects here, but within the context of how I mean this, the answer to your question is, "no, I can't" GM Ji recently promoted a self-reported Judo person to 7th or 8th degree in Hapkido. I read this persons' characterization of his training. If I watch such a person perform their art I will see Judo with some wristlock thrown in. If I watch GM Han, Bong Soo perform IHF (USA) Hapkido there is a much higher percentage of concussive techniques. The TKD people may like this because what they teach tends to be more hoshinsul (still identified as "Hapkido" on the sign outside their school, though). Different schools and styles teach different weapons, different floor work, Forms (hyung)/No Forms, different uniforms, different organizations, different leaders. Giving a TKD person a 6th degree in Hapkido because he can do Four-directions throw and has 30 students to add to the organization membership does not make that TKD person Hapkido. Doing the same for the odd Judo, BJJ, JKD, etc player still leaves you with another MA in Hapkido clothing. No, Ray. To answer your question, "No, I can't." Recently, the Daito-ryu (S Kondo) announced an organized curriculum that he is publishing as a result of many years of work with OS Takeda. As far as I know this is the first of its kind for that art. Even if other people don't agree with S Kondo what would be wrong with adopting a uniform curriculum for the basics like this for all Hapkido arts? Shotokan, with its 4 main banches has it. Judo has it. I think both the ITF and the WTF have it (could be wrong here). What I am talking about here is not the manner in which the techniques are done but the fact that various Hapkido arts don't all teach the same basic material from style to style and yet still call themselves Hapkido. And--- I will say it one more time--- what the hell is keeping the powers-that-be from saying that a Hapkido practitioner to call themselves such should know a, b. c, and d techniques, x, y, z concussive techniques and 1,2,3, and 4 weapons? Its no more than we ask of any other activity - art or sport. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Michael Choi" Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 00:44:03 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: Dr. Kim; Nat'l Hapkido Championships I have personal experience with the family of Un-Yong Kim, PhD and have reservations over the possibility of becoming the IOC President. Although I think that he is the most qualified, I would hope another who is more true to the values and the spirit of the Olympics would become president. Do not ask me why I am against his bid. I have private reasons. It's also very sad that South Korea and all the WTF members have to follow Dr. Kim lock-step as he is the president. Also, without question, South Korea will back his candidancy as it sees him as its latest hope in its perpetual struggle to gain world standing. Personally, I see him one of the last remaining vestiges of the Park Chung-hee regime of the '70's known for its thuggery, collusion, and corruption. I know I am taking a big risk in posting this. I have nothing against WTF Taekwondo. Here in Korea, I am friends with a member of the WTF Secretariat. I met the pastor of the Taekwondo World Missions Church and I just love his family. Nonetheless, I am not a fan of Dr. Kim. I am not a fan of ITF Taekwondo either. An organization that supports a nation that denies its citizens the most basic rights of freedom of belief and freedom of speech should seriously rethink its policy in incorporating member nations. By the way, I think that I already posted information on the Korea Hapkido Federation National Championships. For all of you in Seoul, if you want to join me, feel free to email me. Sincerely, Michael Choi Get 250 color business cards for FREE! at Lycos Mail http://mail.lycos.com/freemail/vistaprint_index.html ------------------------------ From: "Michael Choi" Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 01:24:49 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: Signing Off It's 1:15 AM here in Seoul and I've finally cleaned up my Lycos mail account. It's great to see that DD is still a place for good, sincere, honest debate on Korean martial arts. Debate is good but "actions speak louder than words." A guy who has a dan certificate should be able to show it. My final word... Taekwondo is good and Hapkido is good, just don't get SCREWED! I'm Michael Choi and that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Get 250 color business cards for FREE! at Lycos Mail http://mail.lycos.com/freemail/vistaprint_index.html ------------------------------ From: "Marco S. Subias" Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 10:01:03 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Master's Degree "This is a bad analogy. I have a master's degree. I paid for my classes. I paid for my books. I did _not_ have to pay extra money to take my mid-terms, finals, or other tests for my classes." Illona asked... "How much total did you pay for that Master's Degree, though?" "Maybe the prices you pay are in the classes and equipment ... I know karate schools that do it that way, also. It is disguised in the tuition and all the other things "you have to have" to continue your education there." Illona Sorry if I was unclear. I could have gone to school and got straight "As" for many years without ever getting any degree at all, and when I was in college I took numerous classes not needed in order to earn any degree, simply because these optional classes appealed to me. How much you pay for classes has little relation to earning a degree. Earning a degree is more the result of taking the right combination of classes, and getting good grades. In addition, such things as scholarships and fellowships can result in one not incurring any educational expenses at all. The _classes_ I took cost me money, but neither my bachelor's or master's _degrees_ cost me any money. The classes that were pre-requisites for earning these degrees, and those I took which were not prerequisites for either of these degrees cost money, but the degrees themselves cost me nothing. This dovetails with arguments against charging belt testing fees, as there is no extra cost for being being awarded a bachelor's or master's degree, while many martial arts schools do charge a separate fee simply for testing. This does not happen in college. Only your classes cost money, and for that matter supplies and equipment for college don't have to be purchased at your school,unlike what happens at some martial arts schools. When you are in college, you can buy textbooks, computers, pencils, pens, notebooks, etc., anywhere they are sold. I bought many school related books on-line for example. In addition, classes you take at other colleges are generally taken into account in determining your qualifications for warning a degree, so in that way the martial arts/college/black belt/master's degree analogy also breaks down. While I have my own opinions about belt testing fees, my only intention here is to point out the weak points of the analogy that was given earlier. I also clearly never argued that schools of all sorts do not charge tuition. This is a separate issue from that of testing fees however. Marco ------------------------------ From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 11:37:49 EDT Subject: the_dojang: school in Brighton, co I received this memo from my sister who lives in Brighton, Co. Does anyone know anything about this school and person? Thanks, gary pieratt "I finally stopped in at Elite Martial Arts in Brighton and spoke with the manager. The above mentioned school is throughout the United States and in Canada with Florida being their headquarters. Master Chris C. Yi." ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 17:40:04 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Ray writes: > Can we move on??? > Bruce, I think it is wise to do so. We simply have differences of opinion that won't (nor need to) go away. Let's just enjoy each other's "version" of the art, and continue to train and share "our ways" with others in the spirit of brotherhood and mutual respect. Sincerely, Rudy ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 11:50:36 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #226 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.