From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #227 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 9 April 2001 Vol 08 : Num 227 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #222 the_dojang: USTU the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #225 the_dojang: Mistakes in Hwarang Do history the_dojang: Fwd: Tiger Schulmann's Karate K.O.'s Attorney General the_dojang: Juniors the_dojang: Re: College Prices vs Karate Prices the_dojang: Re: KKW Rates the_dojang: Re: Paying Re: the_dojang: Re: KKW Rates the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #218 the_dojang: HKD history ala Dakin the_dojang: Re: kkw fees/low numbers of non korean high dans the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #226 the_dojang: Recognized Arts the_dojang: Re: elite team the_dojang: Re: Dog Breath the_dojang: Re: Dr. Kim, the North, etc. the_dojang: Re:Exactly what is "recognition" the_dojang: Sorry the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ConcordTKD@aol.com Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 14:24:06 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #222 "You need a KKW 1st Dan to compete in national and international USTU > tournaments." You do not need a kukkiwon to do anything in the USTU except get a license - and that is changing next year I am told. Ok. I am confused. Do we have a rep from the USTU here who can strighten this out for us? John Murphy A-3-756 ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 12:00:01 PDT Subject: the_dojang: USTU >> You do not need a kukkiwon to do anything in the USTU except get a license >> - and that is changing next year I am told. > > Ok. I am confused. Do we have a rep from the USTU here who can strighten > this out for us? That is where the above came from. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 15:08:36 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #225 As I stated in a previous DD submission, my first experience with MA was a negative one. The 'instructor,' if you could even consider him that, didn't know his elbow from his butt. He was arrogant and just plain unprofessional. So, when asked why I stay with in an organization that charges high fees, I reply, "Because the organization protect me from slime balls." The ITF sets standards for their instructors. I relish the idea that if travel to another ITF school, I will learn very similar material. Oh, and who cares about variations between the arts: A wheel is a wheel, but the round one was quit an improvement, eh? Besides, if every Tang Soo Do, Hapkido, TKD etc., school taught the same material, what on earth would we discuss here? :o) ------------------------------ From: Carsten Jorgensen Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 15:45:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: the_dojang: Mistakes in Hwarang Do history Dakin, the text contains almost EVERY mistake about Hwarang Do I have ever seen on the Internet. I can't believe you're using Duggan as your primary source on Hwarang Do. The guy does NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HWARANG DO history. But let's go, quote from Dakin first, followed by my comments: "Outgrowths of hapkido" What is Hapkido? "Joo-Bang Lee and Joo-Sang Lee were two brothers, both affiliated with the Korean Hapkido Federation under Han-Jae Ji." GM Lee and GM Lee were not under GM Ji in any way. The Korean Hapkido Federation were founded by GM Lee and GM Ji on request from president Park Chung Hi. "Joo-Bang Lee (1934-) was the younger brother, but had begun his study of the martial arts under Suahm Dosa, a Buddhist monk at Sukwang-sa (Sukwang temple) in Northern Korea in March of 1942. Lee was then eight years old, and trained rigorously every summer during school break." GM Lee was born in 1937, making him 5 years old when he started training under Suam Dosa. The tale about only training during "school breaks" is one of Duggies tales that apparently spreads like wild fire on the internet. They lived in the mountains with the monk almost full time. When they started school they trekked up to the temple after school (an hours walk), and lived there every school break. How was the training like? "A typical training session with my master was actually a full-day affair, not at all like the way people train these days. We trained everyday: waking up at 5 a.m.; warming up and training for an hour; making breakfast and serving our master; cleaning up by 8 a.m.; training with our master for three or four hours; cooking and eating lunch; napping for an hour at 1 p.m.; training for another four hours with our master; and then cooking dinner. After cleaning the dinner bowls, Su-Ahm Dosa would teach us shin gong, which are the mental skills, and in sul, which are the healing methods." "Lee continued training with the monk until his early twenties (the late 1950s). " Both GM Joo Bang Lee and GM Joo Sang Lee continued training with the monk until he passed away in 1968, this puts GM Lee in his late twenties. "and Bob Duggan believes that (…)" What is his source and why does he believe this? "Joo-Sang Lee studied under the hapkido masters in Seoul, while Joo-Bang Lee trained under Suahm Dosa, Mu-Hyun Kim, Han-Jae Ji, and others. " First of all, what hapkido masters were there in Seoul back then? The first "hapkido" school opened in 1961. GM Lee opened his first school in 1960. Secondly, the idea that GM Lee trained under "Mu-Hyun Kim, Han-Jae Ji, and others" is another Dugganistic fabrication without hold in reality. "Joo-Bang Lee left Mu-Hyun Kim’s school in 1962 after Kim was drafted into the army," GM Lee came to the school in 1962 because GM Kim was drafted into the army, GM Lee taught at the school during the day, while teaching at his own school in the evenings, for 3 months, all while GM Kim were in the army. "and trained in open-handed striking techniques with In-Hyeok Seo in Pusan. " This is untrue, it’s one of the mistakes in GM Kimm’s Hapkido book. "Lee’s set of three volumes on hwarangdo (recently reprinted) remain among the best comprehensive works on the Korean yusul family of arts." There is nothing comprehensive about the books, it’s just examples of techniques in Hwarang Do. 99% is below black belt and the books really don’t show how Hwarang Do looks like. I’ll leave the conclusion up to the people themselves who feel that the books are comprehensive about their own style. “Bob Duggan and Vincente Montenegro were Joo-Sang Lee’s first students at his hapkido school in Huntington Park, which opened in 1968” Which might be interesting for Americans, I find it more interesting that the first generation Hwarang Do black belts, for instance GM Sang-Duk An, tested for first dan on May 5th 1961. “Lee was then a 6th dan but returned to Korea in 1969 for an important meeting, telling Duggan that he might return as an 8th dan. “ Yet another of his mistakes, how can you go from 6th to 8th dan??? GM Joo Sang Lee were 7th dan at the time. GM Lee had already the year before received the 8th dan from GM Choi Yong Sul (as Dakin wrote earlier) “Joo-Bang Lee was designated 8th dan “Grand Master” and founder of a new system called “Fa Rang Do.” “ Well, he was already 8th dan in Hapkido as mentioned, but GM Lee dropped ALL ranks when he started teaching Hwarang Do again. The “FA Rang Do” stuff is just about the most funny Duggan story since he was telling people that there never was Hwarang Do in Korea and that GM Lee founded Hwarang do when he arrived in America… Read on. “Joo-Sang Lee continued to teach hapkido until his brother arrived in the U.S. in 1972. According to Duggan, Joo-Sang Lee only stayed involved with the World Hwa Rang Do Association “for about three years.” “ GM Joo Sang Lee - from 1968 when he arrived in the US - taught Hwarang Do. He used the hapkido name first because it was more well known, and secondly because it was the name they initially tried to unify the Korean styles under in Korea. GM Lee is still involved in Hwarang Do but has not taught for many years. “The spelling of this art was changed to hwarangdo in 1974 or 1975, after Duggan researched the proper romanization in the Encyclopedia Britannica.” Hwarang Do has ALWAYS been spelled “Hwa Rang Do”. For instance try this link from 1972: http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/archivepics/5th-exhibition.jpg Also note the top line which reads “12 years founding anniversary” 1972 minus 12 = 1960, the year GM Lee founded Hwarang Do. Duggan does not know anything about Hwarang Do history. “In 1977, Duggan received a copy of the 1975 Kuk Sool Training Manual (…) Duggan showed the manual to Joo-Bang Lee. Lee was “stunned and disquieted” and a week later handed a handwritten training syllabus to John Huppuck.” Hwarang Do is a HUGE system, you cannot write down the training syllabus to 5th dan in a week even if you tried. GM Lee left 68 Hwarang Do schools in Korea when he went to America, you think he did that without a syllabus? Can you teach from 1960 to 1977 without a syllabus? And it’s spelled “John Huppuch” “Like the Kuksul manual, the syllabus listed every technique from white belt to 5th dan, and Duggan thought there was “a remarkable similarity between the two manuals.” KukSoolHwe, founded by GM Lee and GM Lee in 1962.” “Duggan then added English terminology for each technique, which previously had only been numbered as “Yellow Belt 1 through 28” and so on.” This terminology is only used by Duggan. Under “Kuksulweon” “On the other hand, Duggan also notes that Lee briefly studied open-handed striking techniques with Seo” This is wrong. “and that a picture of Joo-Bang Lee’s tojang in Seoul sometime in 1964-1967 shows that he was teaching kuksul at that time.” KukSoolHwe. Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark hwarangdo@email.com - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 13:20:09 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Fwd: Tiger Schulmann's Karate K.O.'s Attorney General Forwarded message: Tiger Schulmann's Karate K.O.'s Attorney General PARAMUS, N.J., April 9 /PRNewswire/ -- Tiger Schulmann's Karate Centers, the state's largest karate school, won a unanimous decision in court Friday when it knocked out the Attorney General's Office. The court agreed with Tiger Schulmann's that the Attorney General overstepped his bounds by trying to subject karate schools to the state's Health Club Act.... For the full text of this story, . ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 13:32:13 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Juniors What would we do without Carsten to keep us honest in the HRD area? And I mean no slight by that... > "Joo-Bang Lee and Joo-Sang Lee were two brothers, both affiliated with the > Korean Hapkido Federation under Han-Jae Ji." > GM Lee and GM Lee were not under GM Ji in any way. Yet DoJu Ji has indicated that Gm JB Lee was under him, or more specifically, was his junior. Which I guess brings us full circle to Bruce's continued question... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 16:03:30 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: College Prices vs Karate Prices In a message dated 4/9/2001 8:49:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << You can't even begin to compare an academic education and a martial arts education money wise. >> Thanks for your honesty in this matter, Rich ... you're one of the few that I have ever heard say this. Illona ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 16:07:45 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: KKW Rates In a message dated 4/9/2001 8:49:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Sorry, but I can't see how anyone could complain about $70 for KKW Il Dan, regardless of how much cheaper it is in Korea. Compare the KKW rates with the ITF rates... >> Yes, but who here paid that for their 2nd dan? I know I didn't ... it was alot more. Yes, I know ... not because of the KKW ... it was because of the school I went to. :::sigh::: Illona ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 16:11:53 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Paying In a message dated 4/9/2001 8:49:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I can fully understand covering the cost of the certificate, a new belt, perhaps even cover some of the costs of visiting judges, but to pay much more merely because the of Dan ranking, seems in some cases to be taking advantage of those students. >> Well, I know some schools have to pay each of the people that is on the board testing the students ... and if they fly out there ... room and board ... it can be expensive. I know my instructor had to pay the GM for all that and more. Or else we could fly back to New Jersey and test there. Same price for the test ... but now it was going to cost us to fly ... room and board. How many have to do this with the panel that comes to test your students ? Illona ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 13:42:57 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: KKW Rates > << Sorry, but I can't see how anyone could complain about $70 for KKW Il Dan, > regardless of how much cheaper it is in Korea. Compare the KKW rates with > the ITF rates... >> > > Yes, but who here paid that for their 2nd dan? I know I didn't ... it was > alot more. Yes, I know ... not because of the KKW ... it was because of the > school I went to. :::sigh::: That is Il as in 'ill' (Il, E, Sam, Sa), not the roman numeral II. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 05:34:19 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #218 Why didn't Pelligrini stay with Myung >>> Money?? ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 13:50:20 PDT Subject: the_dojang: HKD history ala Dakin Dakin, I -think- you have Pelligrini's first name wrong in your write-up. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 16:24:22 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: kkw fees/low numbers of non korean high dans In a message dated 4/9/2001 7:20:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Sorry, but I can't see how anyone could complain about $70 for KKW Il Dan, regardless of how much cheaper it is in Korea. Compare the KKW rates with the ITF rates... Complaining about how few non-Asian KKW 6th+ Dans there are around the world, now that I can see. >> i have to admit i'm not familiar with the itf rates, ray. no, $70 isnt bad for a kkw first dan. i paid my fees for my kkw certificates without complaint. had my master charged me double the kkw fees, i wouldve paid him, knowing that he is not a greedy man and that the fees he takes home would pay for his time and effort in mentoring me so willingly. complaining about the comparative pricing actually is my point. i know people are probably getting tired of this thread, so i dont want to go on and on here. yes, life isnt fair....blah, blah, blah. yet in both the fee scales and the awarding of upper dan rankings, the ethnocentrism is pretty apparent. both issues are important. melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.cjmas.com Proud Sponsor of the 10th Annual 2001 US Open Taekwondo Championships ------------------------------ From: "Robert Martin" Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 14:33:32 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #226 Dear Mister Choi and all, As many of you know, I am a strong supporter of the ITF and Gen. Choi. I am concerned that someone can condemn the ITF for being active in North Korea and yet support a group that is active in other nations that also actively deny their citizen basic rights. By this I mean, the WTF/Kukkiwon activity in Cuba, China and Vietnam. The economic disaster that is North Korea is very sad. Doesn't it make more sense to support a group who has a stated purpose "to build a more peaceful world"? (One of many purposes.) Just afternoon musing at work. Robert Martin >I have nothing against WTF Taekwondo. Here in Korea, I am friends with a >member of the WTF Secretariat. I met the pastor of the Taekwondo World Missions Church and I just love his family. > > > I am not a fan of ITF Taekwondo either. An organization that supports a nation that denies its citizens the most basic rights of freedom of belief and freedom of speech should seriously rethink its policy in incorporating member nations. > ------------------------------ From: Charles Richards Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 13:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Recognized Arts "I can recognize HKD whe I see it..." That quote and Bruce's reply brought up a memory. When I was a new 1st Dan, with my first dojang, I visited a 3rd Dan with a successful Commercial studio. As we discussed me coming over to visit his school he said, "you do Tang Soo Do also, good." I entered the school and a youth student walks by him with his dobohk top wide open and addresses the school owner/chief instructor by his first name. All his students did. They were amazed by my use of basic Korean class commands. One of their first dan's was going to test for 2nd Dan and asked me to show him Naihanji and Sip Soo as Bassai was the Highest form they did in their school. Later the school owner was promoted to 4th Dan and so now his students address him as Master Firstname. No, I can't recognize TSD when I see it . What sticks with me (and my shopping cart) most is a quote from my HKD instructor Master Allison, "good martial arts is good martial arts." Train with Jung Do in your hearts The rest is commentary, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TSD __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 16:38:04 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: elite team In a message dated 4/9/2001 12:45:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I received this memo from my sister who lives in Brighton, Co. Does anyone know anything about this school and person? Thanks, gary pieratt "I finally stopped in at Elite Martial Arts in Brighton and spoke with the manager. The above mentioned school is throughout the United States and in Canada with Florida being their headquarters. Master Chris C. Yi." >> are these the kids with "ELITE" on the buttflaps of their dobaks? melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.cjmas.com Proud Sponsor of the 10th Annual 2001 US Open Taekwondo Championships ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 15:15:10 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Dog Breath Dear Mike: "...There is a big, big misunderstanding about dog soup, in Korean Bo-shim-tang. Koreans do not eat any dogs...." All the same can you pass along the recipe against the time that Buddy lights out after the mailman? BTW: Is there a Bar-B-Q version of this? I didn't want the people down in Mississippi to miss out at their next Dochang Blow-out. Phone's ringing. probably the ASPCA. :-) Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: cspiller@e3mil.com Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 13:40:17 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Dr. Kim, the North, etc. Michael Choi wrote: >I have personal experience with the family of Un-Yong Kim, PhD and have reservations over the possibility of becoming the IOC President. Although I think that he is the most qualified, I would hope another who is more true to the values and the spirit of the Olympics would become president. Do not ask me why I am against his bid. I have private reasons. It's also very sad that South Korea and all the WTF members have to follow Dr. Kim lock-step as he is the president. Also, without question, South Korea wi< Michael, I am also somewhat leary of Dr. Kim becoming IOC President. However, from what I have read about Mr. Samaranch, he is no great shakes either (a former fascist and right hand man of Franco). As for having a leader who's more true to the values and spirit of the Olympics, well IMVHO that would almost necessitate a total renewal of the IOC itself (but it would be nice). >I am not a fan of ITF Taekwondo either. An organization that supports a nation that denies its citizens the most basic rights of freedom of belief and freedom of speech should seriously rethink its policy in incorporating member nations.< I am not a member of the ITF (nor of the WTF, for that matter). However, I too have some reservations about the ITF's involvement in the DPRK. Then again, both the ITF and WTF are in Russia (and I *think* both were in the USSR - which was no friend to individual rights). Then again, the ROK and DPRK teams entered the Olympic stadium together at Sydney last year, and if I remember correctly, Dr. Kim was shown on TV marching in with the Korean teams. He certainly didn't appear to have problems with the North at the time; at least in the context of the Olympic games. My point is that BOTH organizations have been involved with countries that have less than stellar records in the human rights department. By the way, I just wanted to tell you that I enjoy your postings to the digest immensely. aekwon, Chris "Every Experience of Beauty Points to Infinity" Hans Urs von Balthasar _______________________________________________________________ Get your Private, Anti-Spam, Free Email at http://e3mil.com Your Internet Home for Your Faith, Your Life, and Your World! ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 15:23:21 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re:Exactly what is "recognition" Dear Michael: "...By the way, I think that Oh Se-lim's "The Korea Hapkido Federation" claim to fame is that they certificates are the only ones recognized by the Korean government, which in practical terms means that when one joins the military or the police, they are recognized as having hapkido rank...." I know that I have asked this at least twice before and I still don't have a good answer. What EXACTLY does it mean to be "recognized by the Korean government". Is there actually a special kind of recognition, or licensure, or certificate or office? What does this mean? I hear this phrase come up over and over and have seen such in print perhaps once (I think it was a World Kido Assn ad, unless I'm mistaken). But, I don't know what this means. Put another way, I am a member of the Kidohae. What is it I can expect because/if Kidohae rank is "recognized by the korean government". Thanks, Michael. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 15:31:02 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Sorry Dear Chris: "...Sure, Bruce, start throwing logic into the mix. Don't you realize that we are talking about Martial Arts and that they are impervious to your cursed logic?..." Sorry, I guess I lost my head. Or as Radar O'Reilly (MASH) used to say "oh. I NEVER use logic, sir. It just slows down the paperwork!" Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 14:53:09 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #227 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.