From:      the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com
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Subject:   The_Dojang-Digest V8 #228
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The_Dojang-Digest            Mon, 9 April 2001         Vol 08 : Num 228

In this issue:

       the_dojang: RE: Answer to Bruce
       the_dojang: kkw fees
       the_dojang: HKD History etc.
       the_dojang: Paramus N.J and Martial Arts
       the_dojang: Re: Koreans do eat Dogs !
       Re: the_dojang: kkw fees
       the_dojang: HapKiDo
       the_dojang: RE: Juniors
       Re: the_dojang: RE: Juniors
       the_dojang: .
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From: "ISA CONSULTATION GROUP" <martialarts2000@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 17:38:03 -0400
Subject: the_dojang: RE: Answer to Bruce

>>>>>>>>From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 07:59:26 -0500
Subject: the_dojang: RE: Organizations behind the scenes

Dear George:

".... For myself, I started a national organization
back in 1990 and had full backing from several Grandmasters..."

Thanks for stepping up the way that you did. I hope this comes out right
because I don't want to put you on the spot. However, by identifying
yourself as someone who has started their own "national organization" you
present a unique opportunity, in that you may have noticed that many people
who have done what you report doing are not exactly killing each other to
step forward. So, within the context of having separated from a previous
organization to start your own here are a couple questions stemming from
earlier posts.

Bruce asked:>>>>>>1.)	Where do you believe your original organization failed 
to meet your
needs as a MA or as a MA businessman?
My Answer:<<<<<<The organization I was under went defunct, out-of-business 
and the Grandmaster left the country!

Bruce asked:>>>>>>>2.)	How do you feel that your organization addresses 
practitioners'
needs better than that of your original organization?
My answer:<<<<<<Where I had to pay school charter annual dues, membership 
annual dues and high rank test fees to my Grandmaster's organization, my 
organization charges zero for school charter, zero for membership and very 
little for rank promotion fees. I provide the same service and the same if 
not better instruction than his organization did.!

Bruce asked:>>>>>>>>3.)	What conditions indicated to you that you would have 
been
unable/unwilling to make these changes while still a member of your original
organization?
My answer:<<<<<<<As a member of his organization, I had to charge my 
students what he charged me. At times I went in the hole to help a young 
student who couldn't safford the fees to test but really needed to test!

Bruce asked:>>>>>>>4.)	Would re-integration with your original organization 
be an option
and what would it take to accomplish this?
My answer:<<<<<<<<Already answered this one!

Bruce asked:>>>>>>>>5.)	Have you experienced members splitting from your 
present
organization to begin THEIR own "national organizations" and have you
identified ways of reducing this pattern (given that you see this as a
pattern that merits dissuasion)?
My answer:<<<<<<No I have not experienced this lately. When i had one school 
I did run into a "bad" situation with one of my Assistants who stole half my 
school and started his own, ...but that was way in the past. This year my 
organization has grown exponentially, so much so that I have had to change 
the name from "national" to "International".

Bruce asked:>>>>>>6.)	Other than reduction of fees, in what ways are the 
patterns of cash
flow different for you than for your original organization? By this I mean
do the revenues that you collect for fees, and tuition in your organization
serve purposes other than income for the organization?
My answer:<<<<<<<<<All the fees I collect go right back into the 
organization. Of course it helps to be independently wealthy (ain't that 
right Ray Terry?)"""""""""""""""""""
I hope this answers your questions Bruce. I was always an Independent 
individual, even in the service of our Uncle Sam. But when I involved myself 
in the MA my independence waned quite a bit as I tried to be a follower and 
not a leader. Then I learned to be a good leader you must have been a good 
follower. I did as many of the "grandmasters, masters" have done. I did it 
my way! Now I do it His way!

Respectfully,
george petrotta


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http://hapkido.4dw.com
http://gpetrott.webjump.com
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------------------------------

From: "rich hodder" <richhodder@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 22:10:26 
Subject: the_dojang: kkw fees

OK this contravercy has gone on long enough to get my goat.  And I have to 
tell you it's a long way to the upper pastures at this time of year.
KKW fees in this country are subject to processing/administrative fees from 
the USTU. I think that is why they are higher.
While I don't agree that students should be held hostage by their 
instructors regarding Black Belt test fees, If the instructor is up front 
and honest (banging that old integrity drum again) about what the test fee 
is for, then the instructor or organization will not have problems 
collecting. This is kind of a mute point though, since most people won't 
even drive ten miles out of their way in order to find a better place to 
train.
maybe 4 cents this time (to cover the goat)
Rich
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------------------------------

From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" <burdickd@indiana.edu>
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 16:46:27 -0500 
Subject: the_dojang: HKD History etc.

Thanks for going through the history Carsten -- I'll respond in a day or
two when I get more free time, ok?  If you get a chance, ask GM Lee about
GM In-seok Pak (aka. Ji-in Pak, aka. James I. Park), would you?  His
interview
in _Black Belt_ confirmed some things I'd heard, but I would be interested
to
hear his version.

And Ray, I'll check on Pelligrini's name.  Thanks!

Yours in the arts,

Dakin

------------------------------

From: Ken McDonough <maganda44@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 15:59:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: the_dojang: Paramus N.J and Martial Arts

Wow man, I read this quote and fell out of my chair:

<PARAMUS, N.J., April 9 /PRNewswire/ -- Tiger Schulmann's Karate Centers, 
the state's largest karate school, won a unanimous decision in court Friday

when it knocked out the Attorney General's Office.  The court agreed with 
Tiger Schulmann's that the Attorney General overstepped>

Response: Spent my last two high school years at Paramus after moving from
the "Teflon Don" (John Gotti) neighborhood of Ozone Park and Howard
Beach.Those Italian kids grew up big and were tough. Even when they talked
they sounded tough, re: "Who you lookin' at, you Mook !"  In the late 50's
and early 60's they were using home made "zip guns",chains,and baseball
bats-- then moved onto bigger bullets. Moved to Paramus somewhere in the
sixties and started at a Karate school in Hackensack. Japanese based. An
ex-GI who trained you hard. Made the basketball team and we went 21-1. Good
ol' Paramus--home of the Spartans.Got my early taste for muscle cars by
cruising Ridgewood, NJ. Anyone here remember the cruising give me a holler
!  Cops always stole our beer but let us go, "Sorry, we have to confiscate
the beer, but we will let you go !"

Well, that was my trip down memory lane. I am not worried about fees right
now. Just waxin' nostalga. By the way, the Sopranos was recently filmed in
Paramus and at Ramseys Outdoor Gear, right off Rt. 17. My house is right
there. Forgetabout it ! 

So, who here can share similar memories of mixing their beginnings in
martial arts and why they started training. For me, it was simple
man--Survival Baby !  Later I got into the hippie scene and did the Zen
route and everything was groovy and power to the people. Best part of the
sixties,
Free Love, Baby !


McD...

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------------------------------

From: Ken McDonough <maganda44@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 16:04:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: the_dojang: Re: Koreans do eat Dogs !

A digest member posted this:

<Dear Mike: 
"...There is a big, big misunderstanding about dog soup, in Korean 
Bo-shim-tang. Koreans do not eat any dogs...." >

Response: Negative, my man !  I used to live in Pusan, or as some people
say Busan. Every day, I would pass by a dog factory where they were
breeding
dogs for the kill. Then my instructor took me out to eat one night and he
ordered dog food. Considered a delicassy(sic). Apparently there is a belief
that it affects your virility. I can't say for sure but I do know that
right after that I went to...and at least 5....and that was just a start...

McD...



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------------------------------

From: Ray Terry <raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com>
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 16:49:01 PDT
Subject: Re: the_dojang: kkw fees

> KKW fees in this country are subject to processing/administrative fees from 
> the USTU. I think that is why they are higher.

Actually the fee structure is the same whether you go direct to the KKW or go 
through the USTU.  If you go through the USTU, they keep half and send the
other half along to the KKW. 

Ray Terry
raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com

------------------------------

From: "J. R. West" <hapkido@netdoor.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 18:21:03 -0500
Subject: the_dojang: HapKiDo

I have sat back and read the posts on the problems with getting all the
HapKiDo folks together on one page, and although it would be "nice" if we
could all just get along, I don't see it ever happening in my art, or any
other art for that matter.  Any time that someone tries to set specific
rules and qualifications for any "art", there is going to be trouble.
Compare martial art with painting in that although their are many types and
schools of modern art, they all fit under one name, even if the heads of the
various groups never speak to each other.  I can just hear Picasso telling
Dali that there are absolutely NO melting clocks in HIS version of the art.
HapKiDo is, IMHO, a very personal art form in that one's body structure,
age, temperament and type of opponent all influence your arsenal of
techniques and application of these techniques.  Do I want someone at some
organization telling me what to teach or how to teach it?...I think not.  I
am not afraid to get on the mat with anyone, and I learn from everyone, and
everything I learn is added to my concept of HapKiDo, which is passed on, in
turn, to my students.   If I steal a way of stepping into a technique while
watching old videos of Dr. Kimm, what I'm doing is STILL HapKiDo, it's just
a little better or more effective (again, IMHO).  Variations on a basic
theme are what make some HapKiDo players seem more competent than others,
that is, they have the  ability to change a technique either out of
necessity or desire, and still end up with a desired result, and that is
what I strive for in my practice and my teaching.  I don't know if anyone
out there teaches exactly like I do, and in reality, I don't particularly
care what everyone else does, as long as long as I have the freedom to do
things in the way that I feel is best.....J. R. West   www.hapkido.com

------------------------------

From: Carsten Jorgensen <hwarangdo@email.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 20:33:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: the_dojang: RE: Juniors

Dakin:
>>> "Joo-Bang Lee and Joo-Sang Lee were two brothers, both affiliated with the Korean Hapkido Federation under Han-Jae Ji." <<<

Me:
>> GM Lee and GM Lee were not under GM Ji in any way. <<

Ray:
>Yet DoJu Ji has indicated that Gm JB Lee was under him, or more specifically,was his junior.  Which I guess brings us full circle to Bruce's continued question...    :) <

Well, if you, or anybody else says that GM Ji has said that officially, then I'll ask GM Lee and get his official response.

Carsten Jorgensen
Copenhagen, Denmark
hwarangdo@email.com

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------------------------------

From: Ray Terry <raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com>
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 18:31:12 PDT
Subject: Re: the_dojang: RE: Juniors

> Ray:
> >Yet DoJu Ji has indicated that Gm JB Lee was under him, or more specifically,was his junior.  Which I guess brings us full circle to Bruce's continued question...    :) <
> 
> Well, if you, or anybody else says that GM Ji has said that officially, then 
> I'll ask GM Lee and get his official response.

I'm fairly certain that DoJuNim explained it that way, but that particular
conversation would have been 4 or so years ago, so perhaps I'm mistaken.  
Either way I'm not sure it is worth making a big deal over.

Can't we go back to picking on Bruce?   :)

Ray Terry
raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com

------------------------------

From: Ray Terry <raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com>
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 18:33:20 PDT
Subject: the_dojang: .


------------------------------

End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #228
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