From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #230 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 10 April 2001 Vol 08 : Num 230 In this issue: the_dojang: question the_dojang: things the_dojang: The Lees the_dojang: Re: Gunting Cuts the_dojang: Re: KKW fees - trickle down the_dojang: Re: Gunting demo the_dojang: Test Fees Re: the_dojang: Re: Gunting demo Re: the_dojang: Test Fees Re: the_dojang: Re: Gunting Cuts the_dojang: RE: Gunting Demo - Whoops! the_dojang: It wasn't the drinking. It was too much dog! the_dojang: Re: Kukkiwon certification the_dojang: RE: "... if it takes all summer." the_dojang: Re: HKD - on the same page the_dojang: RE: And you thought Potsdam was big....! ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: c <24wide@bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 02:46:29 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: question I am a proud student of Kuk Sool Won. I would like to know how to speak the Names, Titles Body parts etc. in the Korean language. Do you know of any information that will help me in finding a source of maybe audio tapes that would help me. thanks Dahn Boh wilson ------------------------------ From: Harold Whalen Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 05:42:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: the_dojang: things I Thought I would also like to add a few things about what Master West stated,First of all if you get the chance go to MS. and train the seminar was a lot of fun and i got to meet people I have talked with on the digest which now I can put a face with the name.We came home with new some friends. Jack O, mentioned seminars around the country ? This would give everyone the opportunity to meet it is obvious we care about Hapkido,And i would hate to see it disintegrate like other arts. It may never happen Because of money, ego and whom will be in the the leadership role. A question was asked about Grandmaster Ji seminar in Ct area it has been rescheduled until Sept dates will be confirmed at a later date. - -------------------------------------------------------------- Get a free e-mail account from Verizon Online at http://www.verizon.net ------------------------------ From: Harold Whalen Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 05:49:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: the_dojang: The Lees A question for Todd: Perhaps since you are the expert on Whom is Hapkido and Who is not you would care to comment on Grandmaster Lee stating he is Hapkido? This is not meant as shot just a question Hal - -------------------------------------------------------------- Get a free e-mail account from Verizon Online at http://www.verizon.net ------------------------------ From: Victor Cushing Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 06:55:52 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Gunting Cuts I also cut open a sweatshirt, in my case a loose one the first time I tried to open a handmade "Escalator", the forerunner of the Spyderco Gunting. It didn't get me. Everytime I show anyone the knife, I tell them not to open it on themselves. Folks, Bram Frank's then girlfriend cut her jeans(fortunately not herself) in Florida in the fall of 1998 when they were using hand made prototypes, I was there when it happened, so he knows it can turn on its owner. This weapon design while very well suited to its purposes and a real innovation in knife design has a nasty surprise waiting for you if you open it on yourself. The claim that it will open on your opponent as you pull it across him/her is true, but it will also cut them as you do that. This fact should be in a warning accompanying the knife, since it is not something that would happen with more conventional designs. Sorry, Ray that you were cut. I think that Bram and Spydercon should make sure that the buyer is aware of that characteristic instead of letting people find out the hard way. Vic Cushing ------------------------------ From: "Dana Vaillancourt" Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 11:53:39 Subject: the_dojang: Re: KKW fees - trickle down I think instructors (4th dan or higher) may also charge more than the base KKW fee to their students, not only for shipping & handling (or wiring $ to Korea), but due to the fact that they themselves are usually charged exorbitant fees to be able to pass the privilege on to their students. In the past, I had charged a little more to each qualified student who wanted a KKW to offset the fee of processing my own (which in turn made theirs possible). I was up-front about it and this certification was optional. You pay your dues more than one way to get to this point of dan examiner. Dana _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: foxdragon@cuttingedge.net Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:36:56 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Gunting demo > From: Ray Terry > > Master Rowe will get a kick out of this... > > I was showing a friend how to use the Gunting knife that > Master Rowe likes > so much. There are various ways to open it, so I demoed > one of them on > myself, on my chest. Cut myself big time and bled like a > stuck pig. The > whole time I was thinking of what a kick Master Rowe would > get out of that > little event, as I bled all over myself, my clothes, and > my friend's > house. :) > > Lesson learned... more time needed with the trainer > (dull) model of the > Gunting before I go showing off again... > Question Ray. Why did you show off? Donna > ------------------------------ From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:01:15 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Test Fees Every instructor has the right to make money on the rank test and promotions. Our black belt test begins at 9:30 AM and concludes around 3:30 PM. We leave, then come back at 6:30 PM for a promotion ceremony. Certificate, frame, embroidered belt are given to the new black belt. After the ceremony we go to dinner to celebrate. Our black belt fee is set to cover the cost of USNTF certificate (international certificate, signed by my 9th dan Kukkiwon, grandmaster) frame and embroidered belt. Plus I include a set amount so that I am paid for being there all day and to pay for my family's dinner. I do not invite anyone outside my immediate school to sit on the board. Why should I? It's my school. I am a fifth dan, but I have never invited a guest (from outside my immediate school) to sit on the board, even when I was a second dan. I even tested my own wife and also my daughter. Their knowledge and performance speak for themselves. Why would anyone pay for another person to test their students? Doesn't make sense. gary pieratt In a message dated 4/9/01 4:32:05 PM Central Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Well, I know some schools have to pay each of the people that is on the board testing the students ... and if they fly out there ... room and board ... it can be expensive. I know my instructor had to pay the GM for all that and more. Or else we could fly back to New Jersey and test there. Same price for the test ... but now it was going to cost us to fly ... room and board. How many have to do this with the panel that comes to test your students ? >> ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 6:41:06 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Gunting demo > > Gunting before I go showing off again... > > Question Ray. > Why did you show off? Actually, I wasn't. Just literary license. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 6:45:36 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Test Fees > Why would anyone pay for another person to test their students? It is not an uncommon practice. Somewhat removes the possibility of nepotism and adds even more stress to the student during the testing. Often the pay is just taking the visiting master out to a nice dinner and maybe putting them up for the night. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 6:54:13 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Gunting Cuts > I think that Bram and Spydercon should make sure that the buyer is aware of > that characteristic instead of letting people find out the hard way. In my case, I was very familiar with the model. My friend's brand new knife just had a stiff action to it and even tho I thought I was going slowly to demo the motion, it bit me. I just thought it was funny. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:29:33 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Gunting Demo - Whoops! <>> Hope you had some super glue on hand! Now you know why we have the drone (trainer) :) I carry my live and drone always. I pull out the drone whenever anybody asks about the knife I'm carrying. That way I can demo on THEM the concepts and principles behind the impact, opening, controlling, and cutting uses of the Gunting. BTW Bram is in the process of designing a bigger version that will be called the Guro. Practice, practice, practice OR bleed on the carpet! Just kidding ;) Michael Rowe ------------------------------ From: cspiller@e3mil.com Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 06:57:48 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: It wasn't the drinking. It was too much dog! Regarding the recent thread on the cuisine of Koreans. A friend of mine is currently working on his working on his Ph.D. in Chemistry. He was telling me about one of his class mates, who is a Korean national who belongs to the ethnic Chinese minority who apparently stayed behind after the Korean War. The Chinese-Korean was telling my friend Keith that in Korea the young Korean (non-Chinese) guys will go out drinking beer and eat dog and start trouble. "Gee," Keith asked him, "do you think it's because of all the beer they're drinking?" "No, no. They just couldn't handle the dog!" Weird, but there you have it. Taekwon, Chris "Every Experience of Beauty Points to Infinity" Hans Urs von Balthasar _______________________________________________________________ Get your Private, Anti-Spam, Free Email at http://e3mil.com Your Internet Home for Your Faith, Your Life, and Your World! ------------------------------ From: David Beck Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:55:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Kukkiwon certification Rhonda said: >In the USTU: >You do not need a kukkiwon: > >to compete >to coach >to referee >to be an officer >anything > >The only place u will see a reference to requiring a kkw is for the USTU >licensing program which at the moment is only open to kkw dan holders 6-9 - >with a tentative seminar scheduled for 4th & 5th in Aug. The plan is to >eliminate this last requirement for kkw next year. > >U do need to provide a proof of rank to gain referee certification - a school >cert or qa kkw will do. But the kkw is not a requirement Did some of these change fairly recently? I've heard time and time again that you needed kkw for national and international USTU competition. What about opening a Dan file with USTU? Was I right about that at least? Don't you have to be 4th kkw to certify your own students through kkw? David N. Beck Internet:dbeck@usa.alcatel.com WATT Lead Engineer Alcatel USA 1000 Coit Road Plano, Texas 75075 ** Opinions expressed are not those of Alcatel USA ** ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:32:36 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: "... if it takes all summer." Dear Ray and Carsten: "...> "Joo-Bang Lee and Joo-Sang Lee were two brothers, both affiliated with the > Korean Hapkido Federation under Han-Jae Ji." > GM Lee and GM Lee were not under GM Ji in any way. Yet DoJu Ji has indicated that Gm JB Lee was under him, or more specifically, was his junior. Which I guess brings us full circle to Bruce's continued question... " OK, just before your guys start tuning up on me, let me say that there seems to be one of those little sticking points here that keep cropping up over and over. It seems to have something to do with seniority or standing or status among the pioneers of the Hapkido arts. Since I am not as well-versed in the background information as I would like to be I can only say that this is what I am picking up from these repeated HwaRang Do/ Hapkido / Kuk Sool Won examinations. Apparently quite a few originators of various Hapkido arts crossed pathes with GM Choi. As far as I can see none of them received the "mantle" but elected to go off and start their own lineages. The hair-splitting seems to be coming down to who can make the most of what standing they have in the Hapkido arts, but nobody holds enough cards to actually cause the other personalities to defer, hence no unified art. Am I even remotely in the ballpark here or is this a gross over-simplification? Is this really whats at the bottom of all this Hapkido Chaos--- one guy doesn't like the idea of being another persons' "little brother"? (Maybe I can't appreciate this coming from a big family where I was closer to the top :-)!) Side Point to Carsten: I tried to follow your explanation to Dakin on the GM Lee material but was really having a hard time. I think my problem is that I am coming from a place that GM Lee's material is just too implausible on its own merits. Are there resources independent of GM Lees' anecdotal information that corroborate his history? For instance a comment was made to me offline of another Hapkido instructor whose training experience may have mirrored that which GM Lee reports. This could go a ways toward making Korean tradition as GM Lee reports it more plausible. What would you recommend? Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: David Beck Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:47:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: HKD - on the same page Most of the examples Bruce brought up for standardization, certif., consistent rules, etc deal with sports and competition. I don't think that's really applicable; as Master West said, HKD is a very personal art form. I *do* think you can say: HKD is a martial art that has as core material joint locks, throws, pressure points, strikes, and kicks. It might not be more than a couple kicks in some flavors that didn't come from Ji, but even Choi did some low kicks. Any HKD black belt should have basic competency in those areas, be able to fall, and be able to explain and demonstrate the principles of non-resistance, circular motion, and water. Do people agree/disagree with that assessment? David N. Beck Internet:dbeck@usa.alcatel.com WATT Lead Engineer Alcatel USA 1000 Coit Road Plano, Texas 75075 ** Opinions expressed are not those of Alcatel USA ** ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:01:34 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: And you thought Potsdam was big....! Dear Ray: "...Can't we go back to picking on Bruce? :)..." Okay but before you do I have this great idea. How about if the editors of TKD TIMES or BLACK BELT get GM Myung, Kwang Sik, GM Oh, See Lim, Gm Ji, Han jae, Gm Seo, In Hyuk and GM Lee Joo Bang together for a panel discussion of Hapkido heritage. Don't tell me that wouldn't sell magazines! Even if you don't resolve anything imagine what the energy in that room would provide? You could take care of California's problems all at the same time. Of course weapons will be checked at the door. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #230 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.