From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #231 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 10 April 2001 Vol 08 : Num 231 In this issue: the_dojang: RE:Uniformity not conformity the_dojang: Knives the_dojang: Re: Hapkido GrandMaster roundtable Re: the_dojang: True history the_dojang: Test Fees the_dojang: kkw's and USTU the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #230 the_dojang: Testing Boards the_dojang: The Lee's the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #228 the_dojang: RE: "... if it takes all summer." the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:54:47 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE:Uniformity not conformity Dear Master West: "....HapKiDo is, IMHO, a very personal art form in that one's body structure, age, temperament and type of opponent all influence your arsenal of techniques and application of these techniques. Do I want someone at some organization telling me what to teach or how to teach it?...I think not...." I know I must sound like a broken record by now (was that Ray I heard groaning over his keyboard?), but I think a very important point is being jumped over here again and again, JR. Stepping back from the idea of someone telling you "how to teach and what to teach" I can't stop thinking that somewhere along the line there needs to be some fundamental collection of techniques that every and all Hapkido schools teach-call it the "Basic 100" or "Classic 200". In Daito-ryu there are the basic 118 techniques for achieving ones' first level. In Shotokan every kid who takes the art learns the four basic kicks, four basic blocks and four basic strikes and the Five Basic Kata (I suppose that should be amended to read "eight" now. Sorry.) In Aikido there is the first 5 (?) controls, tenkan and entering (forgot the J term). I agree that Hapkido is highly individualized. Actually I think that ALL MA are highly individualised---- after you learn the basics. What I don't see is that the leadership has done anything to get together and agree what the Hapkido "basics" are. As a result we have people borrowing from everywhere but their Chevy dealership to fill in the spaces. --- then things move forward from there. Different personalities organize different "basics" but these bozo-s don't talk to each other so now things get even worse. Let me close by saying that all this is not driven by pure altruism on my part. I wish I had a nickel for every partner I have had at a seminar, workshop or retreat where I have had to modify my practice. In these cases partner X was taught how to roll but doesn't do breakfalls, or does not know elemental wristlocks, or never learned groundwork because fights shouldn't go to the ground (or focuses ONLY on groundwork and no strikes because fights ALWAYS go to the ground). I just think that person who says that they study Hapkido should have a sound foundation in the same basic material that his partner from across the country should have regardless of the "style" or organization. "...To dream the impossible dream ..."? Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Charles Richards Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:31:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Knives <>Master Rowe will get a kick out of this... I was showing a friend how to use the Gunting knife that Master Rowe likes so much. There are various ways to open it, so I demoed one of them on myself, on my chest. Cut myself big time and bled like a stuck pig. The whole time I was thinking of what a kick Master Rowe would get out of that little event, as I bled all over myself, my clothes, and my friend's house. :) Lesson learned... more time needed with the trainer (dull) model of the Gunting before I go showing off again... <> Dear Ray, The last time I tried something with a live knife I hadn't done with a trainer, my wife came home to see me bleeding like a stuck pick...the blood was dripping into her recently hand scrubbed garden tub....good thing I didn't get any on the carpet . Seriously, after reading your and Master Rowe's post on the Gunting and other knives, and the posts on the Spyderco Delica, I went with the CRKT Carson M16-13Z, Zytel handles, spear point, half serrated blade 4 oz. total weight. Mr. Carson has incorporated a small "gunting like" appendage on the blade he calls the "flip-it". I think I'll try Frank Brahm's seminar before I go trying any "gunting openings" though I have thought about them . For now I'll stick with the material in Hock's first book. Soon my little dojang will have generated enough funds to purchase Master Brahm's Video(s). This little protrusion also offers some (all be it minimal) prevention of the finger sliding up the blade when thrusting. I'm using the deep pocket carry with the clip on the outside of my pants pocket, even dress pants at work. Very inconspicuous. Overall a very nice daily carry. Got Knife? Charles R. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: cspiller@e3mil.com Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:38:40 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Hapkido GrandMaster roundtable Ray said: "...Can't we go back to picking on Bruce? :)..." And then, just as I was about to hit Bruce over the head, he said: >Okay but before you do I have this great idea. How about if the editors of TKD TIMES or BLACK BELT get GM Myung, Kwang Sik, GM Oh, See Lim, Gm Ji, Han jae, Gm Seo, In Hyuk and GM Lee Joo Bang together for a panel discussion of Hapkido heritage. Don't tell me that wouldn't sell magazines! Even if you don't resolve anything imagine what the energy in that room would provide? You could take care of California's problems all at the same time.< This is a GREAT idea. I remember "Taekwon-Do Times" had a GrandMasters' Symposium some time ago (Jhoon Rhee, Jack Hwang, Han Cha Kyo, H.U. Lee, etc.). They all sat around and asked questions regarding their training history, how they saw they the current state of Taekwon-Do, how it could be improved, etc. It was actually a three part article and was very interesting. In all seriousness you should consider contacting a few MA magazines ("Taekwon-Do Times", JAMA, etc.) and see if they would be interested in something like this. You might even want to float the idea of being the interviewer yourself, Bruce. That way some real questions that others wouldn't think of would be asked. >Of course weapons will be checked at the door.< Oh come on. They can all keep their CANES (the only legal weapon) can't they? ;) Taekwon, Chris "Every Experience of Beauty Points to Infinity" Hans Urs von Balthasar _______________________________________________________________ Get your Private, Anti-Spam, Free Email at http://e3mil.com Your Internet Home for Your Faith, Your Life, and Your World! ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 9:18:33 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: True history > More history: > http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/60s.html > > Plus the bottom link at http://www.hwarangdo.com (Korean Martial Arts' Lineage) - more info than you think. It all makes sense when you have the full picture. > > And no, I didn't write any of it :-) True history? Or just more history? As I see it, the problem with determining the 'true' history of this or most anything is wading through the various versions of 'true' history to determine what combination of the variations is the most likely, defensible, plausible, etc. IMHO, all too often something gets published and then is referred to over and over again because it can be added to a bibliography. Carsten will make this claim of Duggan's writings, and perhaps he is correct. But I will comment on Carsten's question of 'what does Duggan know about the history of HRD? (in the US)'. Well, for one, he was there. Perhaps he has an agenda, but it seems that given that he was present at the beginning (in the US) his account must be at least considered. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:41:27 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Test Fees Gary writes: > I do not invite anyone outside my immediate school to sit on the board. Why > should I? It's my school. Hi Gary. In some orgs, it is mandatory to have black belt testing performed by the founder, although the actual test is performed by whomever happens to be around at the time. One way of keeping control!!!! Sincerely, Rudy ------------------------------ From: Tkdtiger@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 13:17:09 EDT Subject: the_dojang: kkw's and USTU In a message dated 4/10/01 10:04:19 AM Central Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > Did some of these change fairly recently? I've heard time and time again > that you needed kkw for national and international USTU competition. What > about > opening a Dan file with USTU? Was I right about that at least? Don't you > have to be 4th kkw to certify your own students through kkw? > > > David N. Beck Internet:dbeck@usa.alcatel.com > WATT Lead Engineer > Alcatel USA 1000 Coit Road Plano, Texas 75075 The change on athletes was about 3 or 4 years ago. The change on coaches was last year. The change on referees was this year. KKW and USTU are not the same thing. U do have to have a 4th dan or higher in order to promote someone thru KKW. The USTU administers their program - and keeps 1/2 for the cost of the processing. This is simply a service the USTU offers its members that want KKW certification - however they do not and cannot require it. Ronda (mama had a daughter not an automobile) ------------------------------ From: Garrison Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 12:26:16 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #230 > I am a proud student of Kuk Sool Won. I would like to know how to speak > the Names, Titles Body parts etc. in the Korean language. Do you know of > any information that will help me in finding a source of maybe audio > tapes that would help me. > > thanks > Dahn Boh wilson If you go to www.kuksool.org, there is a terminology section that will probably have most of the things your looking for. It's done in Real Audio, and sounds pretty good. - ---------------------------- "Reading maketh an evil man" Garrison ------------------------------ From: Richard Zaruba Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 12:53:20 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Testing Boards > Why would anyone pay for another person to test their students? Doesn't make > sense. > gary pieratt When I test my students I actually prefer to have a grader present from outside of my immediate school. It is amazing what can be seen by someone from the outside. Every school has strong points and weak points in the methods and instruction used and it shows in the students there . Sometimes someone from outside can point out areas that need to be improved that were overlooked previously. I have never been so small minded to think and claim that I can see and know everything. Everyone has their own little preferences that are the first thing looked at when we evaluate someone or something, an outside view can often help to see and find little things that may have been overlooked. Respectfully, Richard Zaruba ____________________________________________________________________________ Richard Zaruba University of North Dakota School of Medicine and Health Sciences Department of Anatomy and Cell Biology 501 North Columbia Road P.O. Box 9037 Grand Forks, ND 58203-9037 Off: (701) 777-3952 Lab: (701) 777-2576 Fax: (701) 777-2477 ------------------------------ From: Todd Miller Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:06:54 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: The Lee's Hal, I never claimed to be THE authority on Hapkido or its history. If I really thought you wanted or had any interest in my opinion I would answer. Why don't you ask GM Lim or GM Lee himself???? This is not a shot either. Todd ------------------------------ From: "Wallace, John" Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 11:58:53 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #228 I think Michael Choi was the originator of the thread, and I'll certainly defer to him on what he actually meant...but I think he meant to say "Koreans do not eat __just__ any dogs...", as in, your pet chihuahua or Canario Presas is probably safe...its the "Eating Dogs" that get fricasseed (sp?). They probably breed them like we do beef cattle, to be bulky & fatty so they're more tender than your average junkyard mutt. It would be a good deterrent to people with noisy (pet) dogs though, "Shut that damn mutt up or I'll make him into stew!" - -JW From: Ken McDonough Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 16:04:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Koreans do eat Dogs ! A digest member posted this: Response: Negative, my man ! I used to live in Pusan, or as some people say Busan. Every day, I would pass by a dog factory where they were breeding dogs for the kill. Then my instructor took me out to eat one night and he ordered dog food. Considered a delicassy(sic). Apparently there is a belief that it affects your virility. I can't say for sure but I do know that right after that I went to...and at least 5....and that was just a start... McD... ------------------------------ From: Carsten Jorgensen Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:19:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: the_dojang: RE: "... if it takes all summer." Bruce: > OK, just before your guys start tuning up on me, But that’s the fun part ;-) >>Apparently quite a few originators of various Hapkido arts crossed pathes with GM Choi. As far as I can see none of them received the "mantle" but elected to go off and start their own lineages. << The things to remember is first that GM Choi did not teach Hapkido. The people who trained under him learned different things and they had different backgrounds already before they came. The styles that later became 'Hapkido' were different from the start. This is why I keep asking "What is Hapkido?" We have to understand that there is not, and there never were one style called Hapkido. Otherwise it'll take more than the summer (the subject line of this thread) to get any further. >> Am I even remotely in the ballpark here or is this a gross over-simplification? Is this really whats at the bottom of all this Hapkido Chaos--- one guy doesn't like the idea of being another persons' "little brother"? (Maybe I can't appreciate this coming from a big family where I was closer to the top :-)!) << I'm sure many styles and organizations are started for that reason. But the reason why GM Joo Bang Lee and GM Han Jae Ji couldn't agree on unifying the styles back then, was because the styles are just too different. It's not like when Taekwondo were unified, here all the styles came from one source. This was not the case with the other original Korean styles. >> Side Point to Carsten: I tried to follow your explanation to Dakin on the GM Lee material but was really having a hard time. I think my problem is that I am coming from a place that GM Lee's material is just too implausible on its own merits. << Could you explain what you find implausible? >> Are there resources independent of GM Lees' anecdotal information that corroborate his history? << Such as the pictures in the link I posted yesterday? (fx the founding members of the KukSoolHwe standing in front of GM JooBang Lee’s students). Last Sunday I meet GM Kim Yu-Chan who started training Hwarang Do in 1961. Everything he said corroborated GM Lee's history. Is it something like this you're looking for? >> For instance a comment was made to me offline of another Hapkido instructor whose training experience may have mirrored that which GM Lee reports. This could go a ways toward making Korean tradition as GM Lee reports it more plausible. What would you recommend? << Well, please let us know what you heard. Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark hwarangd@email.com - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 13:32:01 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #231 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. 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