From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #236 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 12 April 2001 Vol 08 : Num 236 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Gotta love those bedtime stories... the_dojang: Re: Andrew's comments on HKD history the_dojang: TaeGukKwan question the_dojang: Master Nichol's the_dojang: Easter the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #235 the_dojang: Korean Language the_dojang: Bul - go - gi the_dojang: Master Ormeinian? the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 08:58:02 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Gotta love those bedtime stories... Dear Andrew: "...To conclude, Choi and Ueshiba were not contemporaries, there was a generation difference between them. Ueshiba was already learning Daito-ryu when Choi is supposed to have turned up. The age difference means that it is highly unlikely that Choi was considered senior to Ueshiba. The harakiri story sounds hardly worth the (electronic) paper it is written on...." I am having flaskbacks to the material I proffered on the AIKIDO JOURNAL Net (sadly no longer available) in a string devoted to the Hapkido/Aikido connection. Taken in reverse order, Andrew, you are of course absolutely correct regarding the material on GM Choi serving as a second for OS Takeda seppuku. OS Takeda died in April of '43 reportedly from pheumonia or cardiac failure. The reason that I am taking pains to point this out is that someone, somewhere needs to start knocking this crap down and revealing that the only people who are keeping it going are the ignorant and the self-promoting. Another point that needs to be addressed is the itinerant nature of OS Takedas' lifestyle. Much is made of GM Choi mastering Daito-ryu and doing so as a member of the Takeda household. In itself there is no documentation supporting that GM Choi was ever a member of the Takeda household. It is, however, plausible that with his standing in the community and with influential poeple in the community, OS Takeda may have indeed taken GM Choi as a small recalcitrant boy (10 y/o) from a Buddhist temple school and placed him in a relatives' household. OS Takeda himself travelled throughout Japan and was rarely accompanied by more than one or two people (and then rather when he was advanced in age). The takeda family has no record or recollection of such an assistant being anyone other than a handful of readily recognized individuals now of standing in the pantheon of Daito-ryu personalities. GM Jang, In Mok was awarded a teaching certificate in Daito-ryu before repatriating to Korea after WW II. This cert in itself did not come from OS Takeda (he having been dead 4 months when this happened). It is possible that GM Choi might have been awarded a teaching cert just before repatriation by a student of Takedas' in much the same fashion. As far as S John Stevens goes, his work has come under fire from time to time for supposed liberties he has taken with the facts. I don't know. My interest in Aikido is only tangential to Hapkido. I prefer to stay with the Daito-ryu sources as OS Ueyshibas' story has problems all its own.But your points about the relationship between GM Choi and OS Ueyshiba have been raised over and over and I can't figure how they keep coming back, just like the one about Choi accompanying Takeda to Hawaii in the 30-s for a demo or the point that you raise about all the Daito-ryu people dying in the war. Do you suppose that S Okamoto, Kondo and the rest know that they are dead? Don't you think somebody should tell them? I guess we just have to keep at it. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 10:27:20 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Andrew's comments on HKD history Ok, ok, I know Carsten wrote me before Andrew, but I still have to go through all the material Carsten pointed out to me before I can write a response. Andrew's comments are nice and brief to address: Andrew, some of the problems you have are with the statements of GM Yong-Shul Choi himself. I included these notes because he said them, and really, he is the most important person in this lineage. Some of the bits of Choi's own story that you took issue with (for those interested) are 1, 3, & 4: 1. I don't know where Moji is but it would seem quite a feat for eight year old who doesn't speak the local language and has no money to get from Moji to Osaka. 3. The supposed relationship between Choi and Ueshiba really bugs me. I have no idea why anyone pursues this idea. Please, just look at the dates, they don't match. Ueshiba was born in 1883, Choi in 1904. That is, in 1915 when they possibly first met, Choi was 10 and Ueshiba was 23. Ueshiba had already studied (and mastered?) jujutsu, the Shinkage-ryu sword art, and Yagyu-ryu(??). He had served his country in the Russo-Japanese war and was noted for his bayonet skills. Given that Ueshiba was a skilled martial artist and Choi just a boy it seems EXTREMELY unlikely, if not impossible, for Ueshiba to be junior to Choi. Note too that Takeda's home at that time would appear to be Hokkaido not Osaka. 4. It sounds awfully convenient that everyone who knew that Choi studied Daito-ryu was drafted and killed. All of these issues are valid. Notice that I said, "The story Choi told is full of difficulties for historians of hapkido." All I've done is present the stories as they have been told, and raise questions as to consistency and evidence. It would be great if someone went further. Next you say: 5. It is perhaps curious that Choi would move from Ch'ungch'ong-do (incidentally you confuse your romanisation) to Taegu (Kyongsang-do). Why Taegu as opposed to Seoul? What do you mean about confusing the romanization? That "o" in ch'ong has a breve over it, right? So it should be romanized as "eo" on the computer, right? Next you mention Steven's book. Frankly, I just don't place a lot of faith in it. I ran into a problem with it during my dissertation in regards to Shunso Harada teaching jujutsu to Theodore Roosevelt. The story didn't hold water. You write: 2. I checked with John Steven's brief biography of Ueshiba in 'Aikido: The way of Harmony' to see how he found Daito-ryu. Stevens wasn't clear but said that at that time Takeda had no fixed dojo but travelled around challenging people and attracting students through demonstrations. Stevens says that Ueshiba was introduced to Takeda at an inn in Engaru, Hokkaido in 1915. Stevens hints that Takeda invited Ueshiba to attack him and Ueshiba was presumably unsuccessful. Ueshiba built a dojo for Takeda in Hokkaido for Takeda. This would also seem to contradict Choi's claim that Takeda did not like Ueshiba. This last bit is not necessarily true. Just because Ueshiba did things for his master does not mean that his Master liked him. I'm sure that many people on this list can verify this difficulty! You also write: The harakiri story sounds hardly worth the (electronic) paper it is written on. I'd probably agree with you, but that is what GM Choi said. We run into a Japanese vs. Korean conflict with the evidence. Both sides tend to be revisionist. I think we still have to keep digging to get closer to the truth. Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick email: burdickd@indiana.edu www: http://php.indiana.edu/~burdickd phone: (812) 855-6869 fax: (812) 855-6410 ------------------------------ From: Dave Weller Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 10:31:00 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: TaeGukKwan question Dr. Hackworth Posted the following: From: Hottstuff5344105@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:42:12 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Traditional Training Events Calendar KOREAN MARTIAL ARTS INSTRUCTORS ASSOCIATION 2001 UPCOMING EVENTS SCHEDULE May 5 TaeGukKwan: Korean Tai-Chi Instructor Course Orlando, FL >unsnip< I am curious about TaeGukKwan. I see it called Korean Tai-chi, and am wondering which family style it is based on; Chen, Yang, Wu (Hao), Wu (Chian Chuan), or Sun. Or perhaps the answer is none of the above and it is an amalgamation of various styles like some of the combined forms with elements from each family style. Thanks in advance, dave weller student wtf tkd "Practice a thousand hours and you learn self discipline. Practice ten thousand hours and you learn about yourself." Myamoto Musashi ------------------------------ From: Charles Richards Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:09:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Master Nichol's I'd like to add my condolences with regards to Master Jim Nichol's passing. I had the honor of sushi dinner with him and Master Allison when he was at Master JR West's February 2000 US Kor Martial Arts Fed Seminar. He was a fine gentleman and I would have liked to known him better. He will be sorely missed. A deep bow filled with respect, Charles R. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 10:17:06 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Easter For those so inclined... wishing you a happy Easter Sunday. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Michael Fell" Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 10:20:25 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #235 "Bul-go-gi" is beef in thinly sliced strips with no bone. It cooks in its own marinated sauce and persons will eat the beef and also dip their spoon into the broth created from the cooking. It tastes great! "Kal-bi" is also a great beef dish. This is beef ribs with the bone. - - Michael ------------------------------ From: Richard Zaruba Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 12:50:35 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Korean Language I have a comment about learning Korean language as a serious Korean martial artist. I am slowly learning Korean for one specific purpose, to better understand some of the principles and philosophy behind the art I study. I speak two languages fluently already having been raised in a bilingual household. I know that many words and concepts are not accurately translated when being brought from one language to another. When se are speaking about romance languages the differences are usually minor. This is due to the similarity and proximity of the cultures that developed them. But try a Romance language to a Slavic language and the translation can become a lot more difficult despite cultural similarities. Now try an Asian language and a Romance language with a number of cultural differences and mistranslations and misunderstandings are all to frequent. I just want a chance to better understand the principles and philosophy behind what I do so I can improve my other training. Like my grandfather used to say, the devil is in the details. Respectfully, Rich ____________________________________________________________________________ Richard Zaruba University of North Dakota School of Medicine and Health Sciences Department of Anatomy and Cell Biology 501 North Columbia Road P.O. Box 9037 Grand Forks, ND 58203-9037 Off: (701) 777-3952 Lab: (701) 777-2576 Fax: (701) 777-2477 ------------------------------ From: "Patrick L" Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 12:15:23 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Bul - go - gi >May I ask what "bul-go-gi" is then ? < It is Heaven!!! Getting in The Way, Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Bernard G Redfield Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 15:49:27 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Master Ormeinian? Hey everyone, A genltemen is looking to get hooked back up wth the Tang Soo Do group that is headed by Aaron Ormeinian, if anyone has info please let me know. Tang Soo Bernard ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 13:11:25 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #236 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.