From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #247 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 19 April 2001 Vol 08 : Num 247 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Forced out by students the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #221 the_dojang: Sold out the_dojang: Advice with a grain of salt the_dojang: Forced Out By Students the_dojang: Re: Forced out by students the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert Martin" Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 09:51:12 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Forced out by students Sir, He is the senior instructor and it is his school. I know this sounds harsh but he gets to do it his way. Try to talk to him about the situation and come to a mutal win/win arangement or give it up and go somewhere else. If he his fair, he will listen to you and try to work it out. If not, then there is not much you can do. Robert Martin > From: SungPaeKi@aol.com > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 23:11:31 EDT > Subject: the_dojang: Forced out by students > > I have a dilema that I would like to share with everyone. I now teach > tae kwon do for my first instructor that I have known, and trained with for > more than 10 years. Since last summer when I returned from the Marine Corps > I have been the sole teacher in his class. He pops in every now and then and > teaches if I cannot make it, but otherwise I'm the only one. It's pretty > much non-profit or negative profit, I think he actually pays for some of the > rent out of his own pocket. I don't get paid to teach, and thats okay, I > knew that from the start. > My problem is that I teach different than he does. I teach a little > more strict and alot more technical than he does, mostly because I was > instructed in Hapkido through another instructor after I had left his school. > The class that I teach is mostly kids about 8-13 years old. When I began > teaching for him, I felt that his students were doing alot of techniques > wrong, and were not getting enough knowledge about tae kwon do such as; > history, korean terminalogy, discipline, etc. So I taught things my way and > it took some of the kids awhile to adjust, and I changed some things also, so > it wouldn't be so much of a shock for them. > I have two problem children, like I'm sure alot of you out there do, > they are brothers, and to put it lightly spoiled brats. They have no respect > for discipline and do not attempt to improve and I tend to hound them alot on > their technique and enthusiasm. The problem that I have is that they disrupt > the class, don't participate, fight and play with each other, and they're > even worse when they're mother comes into class to watch. Lets just say they > sit out of class sometimes and make everyone do alot of push ups, I usually > don't punish just them, I have the whole class do push up's or whatever when > they are screwing up. Lately they have asked to sit out saying they're sick > or that they don't feel up to participating in class. They havn't showed up > for a couple weeks though. > Last night I got a call from my instructor. He said that he had > talked to the boys' mother, and that she had said that her kids did not want > to come anymore when I was teaching, because they don't feel comfortable with > me, then he called other parents of the kids in class to ask them what their > children thought of me, he told me that there were no other complaints. My > instructor then suggested that I teach on Tuesdays and that he would teach on > the Thursdays. He said that he didn't want me around them anymore, and that > I couldn't even come to the Thursday classes, not even to just work out. I > had a few choice words, and I told him he was selling me out over a couple > kids that don't want to learn. I don't want to get into all of the specifics > of the conversation, but basically, he would rather turn his back on me, > someone that he has known for 10 years, and someone who is helping him out, > and letting this kids mother run the school. > I guess I just don't know what to do, I feel that I should quit > teaching for him, but I have some really great kids in the class that have > alot of talent, that I want to see grow into great martial artists. I just > wanted to know if any of you out there have any advice for me? Sorry for the > long post. > > Ki hap > Joshua > Sungpaeki@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Donnla Nic Gearailt Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:28:49 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #221 In message <200104070338.XAA19645@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com> you write: > >It is the same in the workplace. Because a negative is virtually impossible >to prove, I >refuse to be in a room alone with a female client, which is sometimes constru >ed by them >to be a lack of confidentiality. I will not be in a room alone with my secre >tary. >Parents are allowed to watch when I teach. To me, that is sufficient. >Just some food for thought. Unfortunately the reason people want this kind of measure is that child molestors are devious and difficult to catch. A few years ago it was discovered that a paedophile ring had organised themselves around the Irish amateur swimming association, to the point where many coaches were systematically abusing their students on trips to tournaments and so on - it was so extensive that the association was quite simply disbanded. This had been going on for years, and it doesn't seem that anyone knew what was going on. So what might seem like draconian over-the-top measures to you may be what is necessary to catch such individuals, or at least prevent them from operating. Donnla. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Donnla Nic Gearailt Computer Laboratory, New Museums Site, Graduate Student Pembroke St., Cambridge CB2 3QG, U.K. tel: +44-1223-334619 http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~dbn20/ "An eyelash! How could you be so careless!" - Jude Law, Gattaca ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 17:39:46 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Sold out Joshua writes: > I had a few choice words, and I told him he was selling me out over a couple > kids that don't want to learn. Hello Joshua. Your problem is one that crops up over and over again, and it often seems unfair (like you asses the situation); however, you can never forget the one important thing -- it IS your Instructor's school. Despite the fact that you don't get paid (your Instructor problably does not either, and he most likely takes money out of his pocket to keep the school going), you can only do as much as he directs you to do. I saw a few disturbing comments in your post. You say that you teach different, and you actually change some of the techniques he has taught. This is not acceptable in any situation and, if you were in my school, I would not hesitate for a minute to let you know this. I also think the "choice words" are not in the best of anyone's interest. On the other hand, I also hear that your Instructor does not attend the classes in his own school. This is also an unacceptable situation. A school MUST have the owner in attendance for the majority (if not all) classes. If he had been there, he would have known about the problem. That way, HE could (should) have dealt with it at the time and back you up. The solution, as I see it, is to speak to your Instructor to see if he might, given the fact that he is hardly there, wish to sell the school to you. If this is not possible, ask him for his blessing to start your own branch. In other words, you can try to WORK with your Instructor to resolve the situation so BOTH of you are happy. The altenative is what is most often done. Due to the initial hard feelings, the Instructor who feels slighted will leave to start his own school. This results in problems that may never be resolved (unless you move out of the area). In addition, it will split the student body of the present school, which in turn will cause these students to "take sides" in an issue they don't even understand. More bad feelings. Not good! The next problem that often arises is that the new school owner has not learned all he needs to know about his martial art, and this often results in him teaching a watered down version of the curriculum. Ofcourse, you can supplement your curriculum by using the information of all the videos etc. that are out there, and that is how another style (and Grand Master) is born. Do you really think we need another style? Are you ready to be another Grand Master? I sincerely hope you will try to work things out with your Instructor. I am afraid that, otherwise, you AND he, not to mention the good students, will all suffer a great deal (while the bad kids in question laugh all the way). You sound like a good martial artist that ran into a situation that is very difficult to deal with. I sincerely hope you won't allow this situation to draw you into doing something that will no doubt hurt a lot of people. Sincerely, Rudy National Korean Martial Arts Association ------------------------------ From: Charles Richards Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 09:53:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Advice with a grain of salt <> I guess I just don't know what to do, I feel that I should quit teaching for him, but I have some really great kids in the class that have alot of talent, that I want to see grow into great martial artists. I just wanted to know if any of you out there have any advice for me? <> Please take this with a grain of salt. Based on some comments in your post it appears you have already quit teaching for your instructor. <> It appears that even after 10 years you and your instructor have some things you could discuss in a private one on one. Does teaching warrant training in return? If you are receiving training at your level is it unfair for your instructor to expect you to follow his or her cirriculum, regardless of your personal feelings? Who has the final say so about teaching assignments and cirriculum? With strong feelings about cirriculum development is it an appropriate time to "start out on your own?" I chose to reply to this post because these are common issues with no/non-profit dojangs with volunteer assistant/class instructors. What can often happen is an absence of the employer/employee relationship and expectations, but a lot of confusion over interpreting the gray area of Owner/instructor-student/volunteer instructor relationship. The juniour should respect the senior's business plan, yet as a volunteer, can't fairly be held to the same standards as an employee. My only advice. If you use class instructors have a written agrreement about roles, goals, and rewards. If someone teaches for you, value their input and be sure they receive a "reasonable consideration" for their time and effort. All the above represents my $0.002 worth and has no other implied value Regards, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TSD __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "hackworth" Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:28:41 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Forced Out By Students Re: Forced Out By Students Joshua has an interesting problem. He is caught up between what is right and what is needed. Everything works on supply and demand. Sometimes the best product does not do well because of a lack of demand. Many instructors are caught in this situation where they have to decide between teaching the way that is "best" for the students, or teaching the way students want to be taught. It is sometimes difficult for us as instructors to understand that the students are there for their own reasons. Their reasons may not be the same as your reasons for learning and teaching. Your goals for them and their personal goals are often different. There really is no perfect answer for his problem. I hope that he works things out with his master. This kind of rift in the student - master relationship is hard to endure. Richard Hackworth http://ma_success.tripod.com ------------------------------ From: "Mark M. Smith" Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:57:42 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Forced out by students At 11:54 AM 4/19/2001 -0400, you wrote: >I guess I just don't know what to do, I feel that I should quit >teaching for him, but I have some really great kids in the class that have >a lot of talent, that I want to see grow into great martial artists. I just >wanted to know if any of you out there have any advice for me? Sorry for the >long post. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said, "I told him he was selling me out over a couple kids that don't want to learn." Unfortunately, sometimes people cannot step back and view their decisions from an objective position. You said that the school was a not making money and maybe even was losing money. I know that when people are under financial pressure they tend to make bad decisions. Those 2 brothers seems like a pain to you but your instructor might only see the $1000-$2500/year (depending on your monthly rates) that they represent to him. In the long run you are right. It would be better to have the two brothers quit than than to lose you. Your services are certainly more valuable than the income they represent. The problem might be the income the brothers represent is the difference between status quo and financial pain. In this case your instructor only sees the pain. My experience has been (yes, a similar incident happened between my instructor and myself) that your instructor will not realize your benefit until you are not present anymore. The only thing I would criticize you for is when you said, "I had a few choice words." Even though you view your instructor as in the wrong, this type of language only makes people more defense and entrenched in their position. I would recommend that you talk to your instructor and tell him that if he is not want you to teach some of the students that you do not feel comfortable teaching any of them. Tell him you are available and do not hold any ill feelings, it just seems clear that you both have very different philosophies about teaching and since it is his school, he has a right to teach how he sees fit. I know it is difficult leaving students, but if you stay the chances are things will deteriorate even further. He has already shown you that he will not back you, the only question is what is the next incident where it happens. If you leave without animosity and leave the door open you actually have a good chance of your instructor will later realize his bad choice and make up. The situation will never be the same as it was, mostly because you now know more about your instructors personality, but you may avoid hash relations at least. "Your milage may vary" - Human relations are always more complex than they can be described in emails. Your decision on what to do has more to do with your relationship to your instructor, than what is right or wrong. Each person needs to find the answer that works for them. Best of luck. Mark Smith Merrimack, NH ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:53:59 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #247 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. 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