From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #248 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 20 April 2001 Vol 08 : Num 248 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: hands techniques to the head the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #246 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #247 the_dojang: Joshua's Master Suffering Financially the_dojang: Dolmen sites in Korea the_dojang: Re:Dear Joshua the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #247 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #247 the_dojang: 1960 Student Revolution the_dojang: How old am I? the_dojang: Re: Forced out by students/Joshua the_dojang: Re: Forced out by students the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:01:06 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: hands techniques to the head Master Richards, I agree with you about the result of eliminating hand techniques to the head and the deliterious effects on abilities. I will also go one further. I don't know if you remember when the groin was a legal target and sweeps were allowed. Made the sparring much more realistic. Didn't see people holding their kicking legs up looking to get that point in. Also agree with you on the kids and heavy impact on the ends of the carpels. Danny Dunn <<<<<<<. Now my soap box is really wound up. I do not allow my 12 and under crowd to do knuckle push-up and limit the heavy impact on heavy bags, etc. because the cartlidge in the hand is not developed yet. They do not get exempt from board breaking, but are not allowed to use the straight fist (open hand, elbow strike or hammer fist). I also would not let a youth color belt of this age participate in olympic style sparring. IMHO the age-rank requirements should be modified to provide safety, not elimination of parts of the art. Maybe as a compromise we could regulate the amount of contact to the head, eliminating head knockouts for youth, but continue to allow knockdowns for body strikes and points for head kicks, neh? The AAU provides plenty of opportunity for point sparring for youth color belts, and the rules are very clear; light contact to the headgear is a point. With proper control, balance and judge confirmation two points can be awarded for a head kick.>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ From: FGS & KVF Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:39:23 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #246 > From: SungPaeKi@aol.com > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 23:11:31 EDT > Subject: the_dojang: Forced out by students > > I have a dilema that I would like to share with everyone. I now teach > tae kwon do for my first instructor that I have known, and trained with for > more than 10 years. Since last summer when I returned from the Marine Corps > I have been the sole teacher in his class. He pops in every now and then and > teaches if I cannot make it, but otherwise I'm the only one. It's pretty > much non-profit or negative profit, I think he actually pays for some of the > rent out of his own pocket. I don't get paid to teach, and thats okay, I > knew that from the start. > My problem is that I teach different than he does. I teach a little > more strict and alot more technical than he does, mostly because I was > instructed in Hapkido through another instructor after I had left his school. > The class that I teach is mostly kids about 8-13 years old. When I began > teaching for him, I felt that his students were doing alot of techniques > wrong, and were not getting enough knowledge about tae kwon do such as; > history, korean terminalogy, discipline, etc. So I taught things my way and > it took some of the kids awhile to adjust, and I changed some things also, so > it wouldn't be so much of a shock for them. It usually is a shock to students when things change, but more discipline and bettter techniques are a positive change. So good luck on the outcome of your dilemma, but I know from personal experience that when you change things from loose to stricter, you lose students and piss some people off. Thus, you lose a few but the majority realize it is a good change. > > I have two problem children, like I'm sure alot of you out there do, > they are brothers, and to put it lightly spoiled brats. They have no respect > for discipline and do not attempt to improve and I tend to hound them alot on > their technique and enthusiasm. The problem that I have is that they disrupt > the class, don't participate, fight and play with each other, and they're > even worse when they're mother comes into class to watch. Lets just say they > sit out of class sometimes and make everyone do alot of push ups, I usually > don't punish just them, I have the whole class do push up's or whatever when > they are screwing up. Lately they have asked to sit out saying they're sick > or that they don't feel up to participating in class. They havn't showed up > for a couple weeks though. > Last night I got a call from my instructor. He said that he had > talked to the boys' mother, and that she had said that her kids did not want > to come anymore when I was teaching, because they don't feel comfortable with > me, then he called other parents of the kids in class to ask them what their > children thought of me, he told me that there were no other complaints. My > instructor then suggested that I teach on Tuesdays and that he would teach on > the Thursdays. He said that he didn't want me around them anymore, and that > I couldn't even come to the Thursday classes, not even to just work out. I > had a few choice words, and I told him he was selling me out over a couple > kids that don't want to learn. I don't want to get into all of the specifics > of the conversation, but basically, he would rather turn his back on me, > someone that he has known for 10 years, and someone who is helping him out, > and letting this kids mother run the school. How sad that the loyalty and such that are taught to the students are not always followed in real life by the instructors themselves. Obviously, trust and loyalty should accrue to the person one has known and respected (there's the crux) for the longest time, esp, if the person making the noise is just out for control. There are too many parents who think their children are the focus of the world and need to have their own whims catered to. The problem is, there are instructors who can't lose students no matter if they are better off without them. > > I guess I just don't know what to do, I feel that I should quit > teaching for him, but I have some really great kids in the class that have > alot of talent, that I want to see grow into great martial artists. I just > wanted to know if any of you out there have any advice for me? Sorry for the > long post. I would encourage you to stay if you can, but don't let the situation cause you stress or unhappiness. If the teaching situation can be redeemed then, go for it. Otherwise, I would suggest cutting your losses and look for another dojang to teach in. It sounds as if other parents were fine with you, and you could try again to work with kids. Spunky ------------------------------ From: FGS & KVF Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:39:32 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #247 Wow, what a sad state of affairs! I agree that there are sexual predators out there looking for victims (women, kids, men, old people), but to live life and make rules to restrict one on one contact is so sad. I personally work with all ages, and sexes in my job, and since I am a physical therapist, personal space is invaded. To have to have another person in the room to "witness" for me would make my job harder and would not be necessary for all patients. I think it is possible to get a fairly good feel for when to have another there to witness that nothing "happens". I think that is the exception not the rule that "something" will happen where a witness is needed. I think we are so inundated with the media, that what used to go on without everyone in the world hearing about it, is now reported 10 times per day and makes it seem that the world is a very dangerous place where these "sexual predators" predominate. No, the world is actually safer than ever, and the likelihood of you or yours meeting a sexual predator is really not that high. Not so high that we need to freak people out and think "guilty b4 innocence proven" Spunky > >It is the same in the workplace. Because a negative is virtually impossible > >to prove, I > >refuse to be in a room alone with a female client, which is sometimes constru > >ed by them > >to be a lack of confidentiality. I will not be in a room alone with my secre > >tary. > >Parents are allowed to watch when I teach. To me, that is sufficient. > >Just some food for thought. > > Unfortunately the reason people want this kind of measure is that child > molestors are devious and difficult to catch. A few years ago it was > discovered that a paedophile ring had organised themselves around the Irish > amateur swimming association, to the point where many coaches were > systematically abusing their students on trips to tournaments and so on - it > was so extensive that the association was quite simply disbanded. > This had been going on for years, and it doesn't seem that anyone knew what > was going on. > > So what might seem like draconian over-the-top measures to you may be what is > necessary to catch such individuals, or at least prevent them from operating. > > Donnla. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "hackworth" Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 18:19:54 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Joshua's Master Suffering Financially Joshua, if your instructor is making bad decisions maybe he could improve his business practices. I don't mean water down the training. I am talking about lowering his overhead, promoting the school better, things that will improve his profit margin without sacraficing his standards. Check out www.pbms4me.com it has a lot of free information to help people like your master. Maybe an improvement in the business side will become a win-win situation that allows you to continue to work together. (Sorry, I should have included this in my last post but his send before I finished my thoughts). Richard Hackworth http://ma_success.tripod.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:18:34 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Dolmen sites in Korea Dolmen sites in Korea from korea.net Dolmens are megalithic funerary monuments, which are numerous in Asia, Europe, and North Africa. Korea has the greatest number of any country. Dolmens usually consist of two or more undressed stone slabs supporting a huge capstone. It is generally accepted that they were simple burial chambers, erected over the bodies or bones of Neolithic and Bronze Age worthies. These are of great archaeological value for the information that they provide about the prehistoric peoples who built them and their social and political systems, beliefs and rituals, arts and ceremonies, etc. The Korean dolmens constitute what is probably the largest and is certainly the most representative assemblage of these exceptional examples of prehistoric culture in East Asia. The Kochang, Hwasun, and Kanghwa sites contain the highest density and greatest variety of dolmens in Korea, and indeed of any country. They also preserve important evidence of how the stones were quarried, trannsported, and raised and of how dolmen types changed over time in Northeast Asia. Kochang Dolmen Site The Chungnim-ri dolmens, the largest and most diversified group, center on the village of Maesan. Most of them are located at altitudes of 15-50m along the southern foot of the hills that run east to west. The capstones of the dolmens here are 1-5.8m in length and can weigh 10-300 tons. A total of 442 dolmens have been recorded, of various types, based on the shape of the capstone. Hwasun Dolmen Site Like those in the Kochang group, the Hwasun dolmens are located on the slopes of low ranges of hills, along the Chiseokgang River. Individual dolmens in this area are less intact than those in Kochang. The Hyosan-ri group is estimated to comprise 158 monuments and the Taesin-ri group 129. In a number of cases the stone outcrops from which the stones making up the dolmens were quarried can be identified. Kanghwa Dolmen Sites These sites are on the offshore island of Kanghwa, once again on mountain slopes. They tend to be higher than those in the other sites and stylistically early, notably those at Bugun-ri and Gochon-ri. ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 18:14:52 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re:Dear Joshua Dear Joshua: There is probably very little that I can add. There was a wealth of advice from Richard and Rudy and many others in the last edition and I won't even pretend to try and improve on their advice. A couple of things I would tag an "amen" to are these. You are involved in an activity (MA) which crosses cultures so its real easy to get and give mixed messages there. You are involved in an activity that crosses various levels of seniority (age as well as training) and you can get and give a lot of mixed messages there. You are invloved in activity which has crossed varieties of authority, including parent, teacher, student, boss and employee and there are a lot of places for mixed messages there. Any ONE aspect of these three constellations of aspects would be enough to create conflict and look at all that you have here! It can be a pretty heady thing teaching a MA-- so much so that you were willing to do it for free. That was your first mistake--- not taking care of yourself and being carried away with the "buzz" of being an instructor. Your second mistake was not having clear lines laid out about who owed what and to whom. You probably didn't think you needed to do this seeing how you had 10 years with this teacher. Your third mistake was in letting the idealism or romantic view get in the way of appreciating the dynamics of a commercial venture. Its a bitter pill to swallow, Joshua, but you were/are expendable. Don't feel like the Lone Ranger, though. Thousands of my generation are waking up everyday to find out that the Womb to Tomb security they counted on in their career evaporated in the last corporate merger. All things considered you got off cheap with what I am sure is a moderate bruising. If this had been me (and it has been) take this as a wake-up call to start viewing MA for what it is in reality and not what you enjoy it to be in your dreams and indealized circumstances. If what you see when you view MA plainly still holds a fascination for you you're on the right track. If commitment or investment sorta dries up when the shine goes away, you probably want to try something else, as that will be a decent indicator that you will only run into the same situation a ways down the road. Best Wishes, Bruce W Sims www.midwesthapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Dwight D Parker Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:23:48 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #247 Hi Joshua, Start out on your own. Open your own school or start learning another art. Don't put up with bratty kids and their parents who are in denial (at least until they have to show up in Juvenile Court with their monsters). It is your instructors school and it is his rules. But it is your life and it is too short for unnecessary headaches. Best Regards, Daniel Parker ------------------------------ From: "Scott Pratt" Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:17:13 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #247 - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 4:54 PM Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #247 > From: Donnla Nic Gearailt > Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:28:49 +0100 > Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #221 > > In message <200104070338.XAA19645@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com> you write: > > > >It is the same in the workplace. Because a negative is virtually impossible > >to prove, I > >refuse to be in a room alone with a female client, which is sometimes constru > >ed by them > >to be a lack of confidentiality. I will not be in a room alone with my secre > >tary. > >Parents are allowed to watch when I teach. To me, that is sufficient. > >Just some food for thought. > > Unfortunately the reason people want this kind of measure is that child > molestors are devious and difficult to catch. A few years ago it was > discovered that a paedophile ring had organised themselves around the Irish > amateur swimming association, to the point where many coaches were > systematically abusing their students on trips to tournaments and so on - it > was so extensive that the association was quite simply disbanded. > This had been going on for years, and it doesn't seem that anyone knew what > was going on. > > So what might seem like draconian over-the-top measures to you may be what is > necessary to catch such individuals, or at least prevent them from operating. > > Donnla. Donnla, Do you mean to say that these women actually got away with abusing these young boys while Ireland looked on? Based on this, I think all Irish women should be jailed.... to save the children of course. Do you even see how obnoxious you're being? You're presumptions are offensive. Scott ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:43:17 PDT Subject: the_dojang: 1960 Student Revolution Forwarding... The 41st anniversary of the pro-democracy Student Revolution in 1960 was observed at the April 19 National Cemetery in Seoul, with President Kim Dae-jung, bereaved family members, civil rights activists, students and political leaders all in attendance. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:50:13 PDT Subject: the_dojang: How old am I? Just received my USTU membership card for 2001. It says my birth date is 12/31/1899. Given that, I guess my kicks aren't so bad after all... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Lasich, Mark D." Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 08:08:51 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Forced out by students/Joshua [snip] > I guess I just don't know what to do, I feel that I should quit > teaching for him, but I have some really great kids in the class that have > alot of talent, that I want to see grow into great martial artists. I just > wanted to know if any of you out there have any advice for me? Sorry for the > long post. Joshua, Without going into details, this feeling is all too familar. Being treated this way by someone you respect, someone you have a long history with, and someone who you are helping is not easy to take - nor should you have to accept this. You need to take the opportunity to discuss this with him. If not, it will continue to weigh heavy on your mind, and impact your health and happiness. You may not like what he has to say, but it is better to hear it directly than to imagine what is going through his mind...Since this is "non-profit" I doubt that money is the driver, so something else must be making him back two students over a long term martial artist! Based on what he says, you can then decide what is in your best interest. Do NOT sacrifice your own values and principles. It is far better to remove yourself from the situation, than to essentially live a lie, by doing and/or supporting something/someone that is not consistient with who you are. Even if you get over this hurtle, you now know first hand how he can be, and your future association with him will be forever tainted by this incident. Being the case, respect for the man will come down a notch or so, and you may not be as willing to be as helpful as you once have been. The very foundation of your involvement has developed a crack. Sometimes as certain people gain rank, respect for the individual actually decreases when they no longer live the values of respect, discipline, and self-control that they continue to EXPECT everyone ELSE to live. Sad, but all too true. Good luck, Mark Lasich mark.lasich@alcoa.com ------------------------------ From: J T Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 06:07:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Forced out by students Perhaps another route to take is to talk to the instructor and have him come into the dojant in the middle of the class and observer how these two kids act. If he is really hell bent on not having you teach or work out, then there is really no reason to stay there. Sometimes these things happen. If you do decide to go, leave on best terms as possible. Never burn your bridges. Another route is to talk to the kids' parents directly and find out how they feel about you. I have seen many times that the parents are quick to complain about one instructor to another, but when the instructor confronts them directly with the complaints, they either have nothing to say or they can work it out with the instructor and come to some terms. Communication and a level head is the key in both situations. Jeremy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 6:43:22 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #248 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.