From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #249 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 20 April 2001 Vol 08 : Num 249 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #248 the_dojang: Is the Customer always right? the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #248 the_dojang: Re: Instructor vs. Prob Students the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #248 the_dojang: Forced out by students part 2 the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SallyBaughn@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:22:06 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #248 Spunky wrote: << am a physical therapist, personal space is invaded. To have to have another person in the room to "witness" for me would make my job harder and would not be necessary for all patients. I think it is possible to get a fairly good feel for when to have another there to witness that nothing "happens". I think that is the exception not the rule that "something" will happen where a witness is needed. >> Maybe the rules have changed, but even 30 years ago in VA and 15 years ago in GA, any time anyone, whether a doctor or physical therapist, expected to touch another person in any way, state law required that another person be in the room during examination and/or treatment. It was a safety measure then -- protecting both doctor/therapist and patient - -- and IMO makes even more sense today. Sure, I'd bet 9,999 out of 10,000 people would never do anything wrong. But safety in numbers could save the 10,000th person from being molested or treated inappropriately OR having a lawsuit filed against them for inappropriate behavior. Sally SallyBaughn@aol.com ------------------------------ From: "Borski, Janis" Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:39:27 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Is the Customer always right? And if so to what degree? As I read all of the varying responses to Joshua's request for help there seems to be quite a range of opinions on this. I come from a long family history of privately owned businesses including my own operation of a red-neck tavern and restaurant. My parents had the strong belief that the customer was "always right" even at the expense of their own family. I don't share those views. I feel that it's important to maintain a high level of integrity in your own business or what ultimately will happen is that you will continue to attract like-minded trouble maker customers instead of a higher quality of customers? Are the troubled youngsters from Joshua's post really more important financially to his instructor in the long run? Thanks. Janis ------------------------------ From: Donnla Nic Gearailt Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:21:50 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #248 > >From: "Scott Pratt" >Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:17:13 -0400 >Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #247 > >- ----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 4:54 PM >Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #247 > >> From: Donnla Nic Gearailt >> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:28:49 +0100 >> Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #221 >> >> In message <200104070338.XAA19645@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com> you write: >> > >> >It is the same in the workplace. Because a negative is virtually impossib >le >> >to prove, I >> >refuse to be in a room alone with a female client, which is sometimes cons >tru >> >ed by them >> >to be a lack of confidentiality. I will not be in a room alone with my se >cre >> >tary. >> >Parents are allowed to watch when I teach. To me, that is sufficient. >> >Just some food for thought. >> >> Unfortunately the reason people want this kind of measure is that child >> molestors are devious and difficult to catch. A few years ago it was >> discovered that a paedophile ring had organised themselves around the Irish >> amateur swimming association, to the point where many coaches were >> systematically abusing their students on trips to tournaments and so on - i >t >> was so extensive that the association was quite simply disbanded. >> This had been going on for years, and it doesn't seem that anyone knew what >> was going on. >> >> So what might seem like draconian over-the-top measures to you may be what >is >> necessary to catch such individuals, or at least prevent them from operatin >g. >> >> Donnla. > >Donnla, > >Do you mean to say that these women actually got away with abusing these >young boys while Ireland looked on? Based on this, I think all Irish women >should be jailed.... to save the children of course. > >Do you even see how obnoxious you're being? > >You're presumptions are offensive. ????? I seem to have massively offended you, but I have no idea how. My point was that child molestors are extremely difficult to catch. Furthermore, if you look at any of the data on the subject, it seems that they affect a substantial minority of the population. This does not mean that there are loads of them out there - simply that they gets their hands on very many kids. I support measures such as requiring anyone who has contact with children in their work to have a background check carried out. I also support measures such as, for example, a teacher leaving the door open when talking to a kid after class. Not because it is likely that most teachers will take advantage of the situation, simply that some individuals will, and leaving the door open makes it less likely that they will do so. I know more than one person who has been severely affected by being molested as a child, and I for one would be quite happy to leave office doors open for a lifetime rather than see it happen to more kids. Donnla. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Donnla Nic Gearailt Computer Laboratory, New Museums Site, Graduate Student Pembroke St., Cambridge CB2 3QG, U.K. tel: +44-1223-334619 http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~dbn20/ "An eyelash! How could you be so careless!" - Jude Law, Gattaca ------------------------------ From: DrgnSlyr5@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:16:53 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Instructor vs. Prob Students In regard to the dojang owner asking Joshua not to teach or be around when the problem students are present -- been there, done that. We had a student who decided she did not like me (which started when I passed her in rank). Even though I was (am) part-owner of the studio, my Instructor/Co-owner asked me not to come on certain days when this student wanted to come. Yes, I felt it was unfair. Yes, I felt that a problem person who came sporadically was being given preference over a consistent, dedicated person (me). Yes, I felt it unreasonable that I be restricted at all as co-owner of the place. I chose to honor my Instructor's request out of respect for him. I don't have to understand his reasons; indeed, sometimes I cannot see the rationale for some of his decisions beyond his great desire for peace with all, even at my expense. I don't remember how long the time of restriction lasted as this was years ago, but eventually it became clear that the student wasn't attending even though she had been told when I wouldn't be there. I asked my instructor if I could resume coming on those days and he consented. Had I let the hurt of how I felt treated be the deciding factor, I would have missed out on the excellent instruction I have received in years since. I doubt my instructor even remembers the incident now. It takes a strong person to make Black Belt and strong people often have conflicts with each other. As an instructor you have to develop a thick skin realizing that not everyone will like you. But there is also honor and loyalty to one's instructor. As long as you are under his authority, honor demands you acquiesce to his decisions. If you feel you cannot, (after attempts to reconcile your needs with his desires), make an honorable exit. As someone else here mentioned, your instructor may rethink his position in your absence. If you have left the door open by the manner in which you leave, your options will be increased. It's not an easy situation -- good luck! DS ------------------------------ From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:14:27 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #248 <> << Donnla, Do you mean to say that these women actually got away with abusing these young boys while Ireland looked on? Based on this, I think all Irish women should be jailed.... to save the children of course. Do you even see how obnoxious you're being? You're presumptions are offensive. Scott >><> Geesh, calling someone 'obnoxious' for sharing a story to emphasis their beliefs is a bit harsh. I did not take Donnla's remarks as being a dig on Ireland's morals. I thought she was just contributing her standing on the importance of protecting young students from unexpected wrongdoing. - -Cheree "Skepticism is often the art of masking envy." ------------------------------ From: SungPaeKi@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:30:21 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Forced out by students part 2 I'd just like to thank everyone that gave advice on my post. I had no idea that so many people had the same problems as myself. Some of the criticism was hard to take but I respect all of the opinions, it helps me see all of the sides of the story, there are just a couple of things that I want to clarify. The instructor that I speak of was my first instructor, I keep him nameless not to incriminate him. Was a 2nd degree in Tae kwon do when I began training with him and he still is. Now I understand that the rank does not always show the expertise and I am not saying that he is not good by any means, but he did stop learning as a second degree and has not attempted to progress. I received a 2nd Dan from him after being with him for 3 years, I did not know at the time that a 2nd Dan should not promote someone else to 2nd Dan. After that I felt that I wasn't learning anything from him anymore and felt that I should move on. With my original instructors permission I began training under another instructor in Hapkido and Tae kwon do. He was a 3rd degree in Hapkido and a 4th degree in Tae kwon do. I was amazed at all that I was missing out on, and learned so much more about MA from my current instructor, about pressure points, proper body alignment, generation of power, history, philosophy, etc. I tested under my new instructor for my 2nd degree again, and this time I feel like I deserve it. I also tested for my 1st Dan in Hapkido and feel that I deserve that too. So when I returned from the Marines and my original instructor asked me to teach for him I said yes, it might be a good way to get involved in my home town again. So I began teaching the students things that I was taught from both instructors limiting it to tae kwon do, and that is what I want to pass on to my students, I didn't necessarily change things in my original instructors class I added things, and I am more strict about techniques and doing them right. Some of the students didn't like it they looked at it all as extra work and many adjusted right away. I do not consider my original instructor my instructor anymore, because I don't feel that I have learned anything from him in quite some time, though I do respect him as a senior and a friend. So that's the whole story, and that is why I feel I am being cheated, but I understand that it is his school and he has the final say, but at the same time I don't think I was given a fair shake. I hope no one thinks that I am a bad person, my intentions were always good. I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet but I hope to have a sit down civil talk with my old instructor soon. Ki hap Joshua PS Sorry for another long post. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:36:50 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #249 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. 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