From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #268 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 1 May 2001 Vol 08 : Num 268 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #265 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #265 the_dojang: A Little Older Than Middle-Aged Martial Artists Subject: the_dojang: Catch the fish or give them a rod? the_dojang: RE: KHF / NHA the_dojang: letters, letters, letters the_dojang: Re: Instructer Resposibilities the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FGS & KVF Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 07:13:26 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #265 > "Sorry, Spunky. I know that this bill of goods has been sold to students for decades. The fact is that position is a direct result of the commercial need to develop a cheap labor force of instructors which frees up time for the head man to get a life back after the intense years of organizing a school. Korean arts did not have "Black Belt" for generations, nor did they have a patrilinear order of succession in the arts. All these attributes that keep getting tossed around are a function of organizational artifacts secondary to the introduction of Japanese hierarchical approaches to training." My instructor never claimed that the old days required teaching for one to receive a BB, he just was taught that BBs could teach and pass their skills on by his own instructor. He never used his BBs to get free teaching. They were compensated with free privates. As well, once you reached BB, he ceased to charge you monthly dues. Classes were free, and teaching was paid with privates. So, all in all, for my particular instructor, freebie teachers was not his goal. He really felt that BBs should know their stuff well enough to teach it to others, and give back to the art. > > > "In my classes I train the student to be able to teach but it has nothing to do with managing the classes. I teach every class myself. Rather, the idea of training students as teachers is to fix it so that sooner or later they don't need me anymore and it is THEY who can move on and have a life. If somebody wants to hang around my classes for 15 years because they enjoy my magnetic personality ( :-) ) thats on them. But if some poor devil hangs around for 15 years because he just can't get the hang of things, I have failed." He too taught his classes. I used to take 4-6 classes per week, and only one was taught by the 2nd degree he had under him. I was actually looking forward to learning how to teach and pass on my knowledge, but moved b4 I got to the required level. It did not take 15 years, but depending on how many classes per week and how much practice at home, one could get a BB in 4 years from him, or 6-10. I would have to say that I personally thot I would probably be the 6-10 year program, as coordination, balance and grace do not come naturally to me. That was not a turnoff, in fact, I liked the fact that someone was demanding a lot from me and I was and am still eager to give it. I have seen his BBs and other BBs from different schools. There has been often a difference in skill level. But, then I am a perfectionist, and demand a lot from myself, so I can't complain when someone else does the same with my interests at heart. He definitely did have that b/c when I left the area and asked for advice on schools to transfer to, he did not know of any to suggest in the area I was moving to, but was willing to come out and scope them out with me. Nice guy!! So, I understand that there can be freebie problems, but not in this case. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: FGS & KVF Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 07:13:10 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #265 > "There are many paths on the martial arts ... and it is the instructor's job > to help the student find their path and travel it. Not 'force' them to make > a journey that isn't theirs to make just because 'they, the instructor' feel > it is the one to make. > > I know I would have been turned off to it right away if I knew that further > on down the line I was going to 'have to' teach. It was never in my early > path in life in the arts to do so. Later on in my path it has become so and > I love it beyond compare. But not until after 3rd Dan did I really, really > get into the love of it, if you know what I mean. > > Hope I haven't offended anyone ... I just wanted to express how "I felt" on > this subject." No offense taken, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I guess my instructor felt that in order to truly know your stuff, you need to be able to teach it. Also, he felt that BB's give back to their art by teaching. Now of course, not every person makes a good teacher. He didn't demand perfection in teaching, he just wanted effort and improvement. If teaching was not the end goal, he would only ask the student to teach infrequently once they reached BB. I would have to say that I think teaching is the perfect way to improve and truly understand skills learned, and that giving a little back is not too hard so it never bothered me. In fact, as a former swim coach, I thot teaching would be fun but did not get to the level b4 I left the area. Spunky _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: SallyBaughn@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 10:27:11 EDT Subject: the_dojang: A Little Older Than Middle-Aged Martial Artists John wrote: << I began Tang Soo Do training at the age of 43 after many years (read decades) of doing no strenuous activity at all. >> The oldest beginning TKD practitioner I ever knew started his first class just after his 65th birthday. (His wife paid for the lessons as a gift - and also to get him out of the house after he retired.) The last time I saw him, he was 81 years old and had been a black belt for about 9 or 10 years. He moved a little slower than the youngsters, and only sparred with those over 65 : ) - but he was killer at forms and attended classes twice a week. He told me he was sure he'd made it to 80 because of having somewhere to go and something worthwhile to do with his time. Sally SallyBaughn@aol.com ------------------------------ From: "Joe Seward" Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 08:45:56 -0600 Subject: Subject: the_dojang: Catch the fish or give them a rod? Mr Doney, <> I just opened my third school and so I am very involved in the teaching process again. Still today after 22 years in TKD I at times have a student ask "how are you holding your left hand in this move?" and I have to stop and do the move and look for myself. I have done things by muscle memory for so long that I don't think about it most of the time. <> Part of my requirements for black belt tests are so many hours of supervised teaching and then so many hours of un-supervised teaching. I find that the students can then see for themselves what goes into keeping 10-20 people busy for an hour or two, they are then in a better position to make the choice of life student or school owner. I have always felt the one of the best ways to learn and remember something is to try and show someone else. If a green belt is showing a new student Chon-Ji they have the opertunity to be asked something about the form that they my not have thought to ask and will need to ask myself or a upperbelt and so now both are learning at the same time. Joe ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 11:24:15 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: KHF / NHA Dear Richard: "...Membership in the NHA is no more redundant than membership in the USTU. They are the national representative organizations in the US for thier particular martial art. Is having a USTU license worthless compared to the KKW? The Korea Hapkido Federation is very well represented in the US. Anyone wanting to affiliate with them can easily do so through one of the representatives. They are very suspicious of individuals who would attempt to by-pass the national representatives for membership and certification. You should contact the US rep. at hapkidomasterle@aol.com for the fastest reply...." Thanks for the information. Not being a commercial concern, I hope you don't mind if I push questions about the American Dragon and KMAIA to one side at bit. I'm sure that if someone wants to pursue that you'll get a post. I notice that most listkas aren't the shy retiring types if they need to know something, yes? :-) I think where things could get confused is regarding the matter of "worthless." I'm not sure that I am wanting to make a comparison of organizations as much as understand how they come together and what services are deferred to which rung of the ladder. Please correct me if I am drawing the wrong conclusions as I'll bet there are more than a few folks that wish keep such clear in their heads but would rather not step forward. From past posts and the last two of yours I understand that the Korea Hapkido Federation (one of the Big Three) is represented by a number of organizations in the US and one of these representative organizations is the NHA, which is your particular association. So if I come to you and join the NHA, your organization would then become my liaison with the KHF so that I need not approach the KHF directly. In fact, as you pointed out in your post, the chances are that the KHF would probably be non-plussed were I to approach them directly for membership rather than go through an intermediary. Now, the intermediary I choose could be the AHA, USHF, NHF or whatever, right? What I mean by this is that essentially the Korean establishment in Korea could really careless who collects the buck on this side of the Pacific as long as they get their residules equivalent to the fees established for testing and certification. I am going to just hazard a guess and say that as part of your intermediary services there are resources such as training and testing which helps the practitioner approximate the competency levels set by the KHF. I hope I am still in the ballpark, here. And, in your particular case this is a service which you perform for a fee of your own while perhaps offering special consideration to NHF members? One last question, 'kay? To meet the KHF requirements through the NHF membership is the curriculum that you use specifically derived from the KHF, a modification of that curriculum, or essentially contained within some larger constellation of material. I think where I am going with this is a bit back towards the original quality-control issues that wer bouncing around the Net some months back. I hate to grind away at you, but as I have said, I don't see GM Lee, or GM Myung, or GM Ji burning up their keyboards making themselves available for this kind of examination. I hope you can guess how much I appreciate your patience. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 10:14:27 PDT Subject: the_dojang: letters, letters, letters > I am figuring that 30 days should be enough time to get some > sort of answer. Is that a bit optimistic? Probably. I wonder just how many such letters they receive each and every week? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Jerry Lynde Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 12:04:49 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Instructer Resposibilities At 08:21 AM 5/1/2001, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com wrote: >To Market Your Art <--- Eww... how about replacing that with To >Serve as a Good Example If it weren't for so many people "marketing their art" I'd be able to afford classes... *grumbles about MA Commercialism* Jer ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 12:06:34 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #268 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. 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