From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #273 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 3 May 2001 Vol 08 : Num 273 In this issue: the_dojang: Jung Bong or Jong Bong the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #269 the_dojang: Oldest student the_dojang: JiDo Kwan article the_dojang: The Elderly And Martial Arts the_dojang: dobok Re: the_dojang: dobok the_dojang: RE:Thanks, Dakin the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dana Vaillancourt" Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 23:52:21 Subject: the_dojang: Jung Bong or Jong Bong A quick [?] question for those of you who practice Korean style Jong Bong basics or hyungs (TSD, HKD, etc.). Did you learn [from a Korean instructor or junior] hand changes on movements or static hand position (thumb to thumb)? If you learned either way, do you know where this tradition came from? If you do the hand switches [like other styles], do you put the staff under the rear arm, or along the outside of the forearm for applicable movements? Just curious because I've seen a lot of variation. Thanks. Dana _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Neal Konecky Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 17:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #269 The more deeply the USTU and USOC examined this issue (under the ever-cautious eye of USOC's legal department) the more it became clear that not only did the USTU have the authority to issue licenses, it has the responsibility to oversee all aspects of Taekwondo in America, including programs dedicated to establishing and maintenance of promotion standards, education, testing, certification and licensing. There is a very significant difference between a private organization (USTU) monitoring and regulating the actions of its members and government intervention. If I do not agree with the policies of the USTU, I simply can omit sending them a check. Regrettably, whether I agree with a law, I do not have the discretion to opt out. It is for that reason that our elected officials must be monitored and held accountable to the wishes of the governed. If we, as martial arts instructors object to being singled out for background checks, then we have the obligation to let our elected officials know. Sorry for the soap box. Neal Konecky ===== "Our government, conceived in freedom and purchased with blood, can be preserved only by constant vigilance" William Jennings Bryan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "J. R. West" Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 20:07:14 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Oldest student I first met "Bud" Clesi after his 2nd retirement. His first career was as a Naval fighter pilot during WWII, and after 20 something years of flying everything in Navy inventory, he started his second career as a pilot for the US Army Corps of Engineers. Bud wanted something to do in his all too frequent spare time, and he said he always wanted to do HapKiDo (?). As he approached his 1st dan, he would have to constantly chide his younger classmates about taking it easy on him, and would complain if he thought he was not hitting the mat hard enough or often enough. After Bud' first dan test, I was invited to his home and met his wife, a former Miss Louisiana, and was treated to an Italian-Cajun meal of some sort of recently deceased animal in gravy. While waiting to eat, I saw an old "Readers Digest" on a coffee table and asked my host why he kept such an outdated volume, and his wife just said to read page so and so. The story was about my host, who, as a younger pilot, found a distressed woman trapped in an aircraft with her husband/pilot, who had died of a heart attack while flying. Bud found her, convinced her that SHE could actually land that thing, and talked her through the entire procedure, including a better than average landing. I held a new level of respect for this guy, and said "Bud, that's an amazing story" to which he replied, "The movie was MUCH better, Robert Stack played me". I got up to let all of this settle in my brain when I saw a display cabinet filled with pictures of Bud and JFK, Richard Nixon, Elvis Presley and many other luminaries that had flown in Bud's plane during one of his first two careers. Also in this display case was the pack of cigarettes that had been passed from the Soviet spacecraft to the US spacecraft when the two first docked. The crown jewel however, was a centuries old Japanese sword that had been presented to Bud after the owner's gun crew shot him down in the south Pacific. When the handle was first removed after about 35 years in Bud's custody, it turned out that the handle contained a small leather bag filled with diamonds and rubies, some the size of your fingernail. Bud had even contacted the Japanese government to attempt to return the jewels and the blade to the family of the deceased warrior, but all to no avail, but he never stopped trying to return it. At 72, Bud opened his own school and continued to teach up to his death of prostate cancer at 77, and he taught me several lessons that I will never forget. First..who wants to live to 100, when your body "dies" at 50. Second.....Have medical checkups regularly, your life depends on it . Third, and MOST important.....You don't get old be being STUPID. I felt terrible when he died, fearing that the training shortened his life, but his wife told me that it actually lengthened it by 2 or 3 years because he was just SO strong and tough.......Rest in peace Bud, you were the original Forrest Gump...J. R. West www.hapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 19:15:16 PDT Subject: the_dojang: JiDo Kwan article FYI, check out the JiDo Kwan article in the May 2001 issue of Taekwondo Times. How many errors can you spot? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Hottstuff5344105@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 22:48:11 EDT Subject: the_dojang: The Elderly And Martial Arts 2000 YEAR OLD ORIENTAL FOUNTAIN OF YOUTH FITNESS PROGRAM There is a large demand for anything that promotes the feel and reality of youth; and as members of the baby boom move into retirement years, the demand will swell. One of the soundest anti-aging potions is simple, enjoyable exercise and practical self-defense. Numerous studies have shown that exercise cannot only retard aging but reverse its effects. After a few months of exercise, people in their 60s, 70s and beyond perform as if they were 25 to 45 years younger! Muscles are stronger; flexibility is greater; blood pressure is lower; bones toughen; reaction time quickens; thinking becomes clearer; emotional outlook becomes brighter. School owners who offer seniors the "Martial Arts Exercise Elixir" will receive a very good reception. Most seniors have been taught to believe that age and decrepitude go together. This is absolutely False! The truth is that time can seem to flow backward and that the older and more sedentary the person has been the Greater the proportion of improvement. Encourage seniors with this idea: Engage their minds as well as their bodies. Get them excited about the possibility of moving in a youthful directions; and provide constant feedback to highlight the progress they are making. One of the most tragic myths of our time is that people need to take it easy as they get older, giving in gracefully to stiff joints, loss of stamina, weakening muscles and waning mental vitality. The myth promotes degeneration: it is a self-fulfilling prophesy. The over-the-hill crowd really isn't over the hill, unless the people think they are. They need other people to tell them they're not, and to help them prove it by improving their physiques, heart rates and mental functions. The over 50 crowd includes tens of millions -- many earning peak dollars, many enjoying affluent retirements. As martial arts instructors we want to create a varied, safe, enjoyable martial arts program. Some of the exercises should be done as rhythmic recreation to music to add entertainment value to the class to help keep them motivated and excited about working out the music also helps them improve timing. If you want to help seniors and get more of them in the school, don't neglect the "Sizzle," the anti-aging PR. Create an inspiring educational presentation that communicates the facts about aging and getting "Younger" through exercise. In addition make sure that you are constantly providing positive feedback to the members about their improvements. The aim here is not medical, but motivational, to give people palpable proof that the elixir is working! We have found that many of these seniors have plenty of time on their hand and will often come to assist with school parties and other events for the children acting as "adoptive grandparents" in the school. This really helps the kids who don't have a grandparent in their life. One of the intangible benefits for me in teaching this type of class has been that as I help others feel younger, the clock seems to run backward for me too! It has been a very good experience all around. Sorry about the long post. I just feel very strongly about the benefits of martial arts training for people irrespective of age or athletic ability. Richard Hackworth www.americandragon.org ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Pratt" Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 17:17:30 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: dobok Dear all, Now that there is another historical topic has arisen I can once more climb unsteadily out of my tomb and pontificate once more on the good ol' days I remember so well from my youth. Dakin wrote: >> > that's because I believe that such material is an integral > part of MA training > and has been in Korean tradition for about 1600 years. I'm not so sure. I've always believed that Confucianism had a much bigger influence on Korea than did Buddhism did. << Scholars are reasonably certain that Buddhism entered Shilla by the 7th century. This is when Buddhism is mentioned in court records when one Buddhist minister is killed for his belief so moving the king that he adopts Buddhism as the state religion. Nonetheless, in fact, Buddhism was probably spreading through the countryside much before this happened. We also know that Paekche had close links with both China and Japan and transported Buddhism to Japan. Buddhism became the official religion in Shilla and the following Koryo state. Unfortunately Buddhism was unable to stop the Mongols invading the country and Neo-Confucian scholars increasingly attacked it as the cause of decline of Koryo. ChosOn was founded on Neo-Confucianism principles and Buddhism was eased out of public life. By the end of the ChosOn period the project was nearly complete. Buddhism had been mostly restricted to small temples in obscure mountain sites which few visited. It was the Japanese who brought an evangelical Buddhism back into the mainstream (to counter Christianity?). It is less clear when Confucianism arrived. It probably predates Buddhism but I believe that in its original form it was limited basically to guidelines (injunctions) for bureaucrats to carry out their duties. As I mention above it was the Neo-Confucianism project which saw Neo-Confucianism penetrate every facet of ChosOn life. >> Also, Ray quotes the KTA talking about the tobok: >The tobok is a > special clothing > for training the mind and body in which the spirit of Korea and the > centuries-old tradition is alive. .... > The tobok has a similarity with traditional Korean > clothes "hanbok". Huh? The tobok of tangsudo and old style t'aekweondo is just a copy of the Japanese gi. The traditional hanbok of Korea is very different, and can be seen as worn by the practitioners of t'aekkyeon, a traditional Korean martial method. << How traditional is traditional? If you extend back to the Koguryo then you do see figures in murals wearing 'TKD style doboks.' Of course, the problem then is that early Korean dress was influenced by Chinese styles. The 't'aekkyeon' dress referred to probably developed during the ChosOn period. The predilection for white comes from, so I am told, the Neo-Confucian requirement that when a relative died the survivor had to wear mourning (white) clothes for a set period of time, often for over a year. Given the large clan sizes and that this regulation reached to relatives several times removed and additionally included deaths in the royal family, the average Korean found himself spending most of his life in white clothes. >> > At the beginning the tobok were made only in white color. In > 1970, the > division was made between the uniform for the under black > belt and the black > belt. The tobok has a V-neck shape. the p'um uniform has > red-black stripes > along the neck and the tan uniform only a black stripe. << I thought the black and red colouring was for children only? Hope that helped, Andrew ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 6:42:33 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: dobok > > belt. The tobok has a V-neck shape. the p'um uniform has > > red-black stripes > > along the neck and the tan uniform only a black stripe. > << > > I thought the black and red colouring was for children only? The p'um/poom uniform is the children's uniform. The tan/dan uniform is the adult's. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 08:18:05 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE:Thanks, Dakin Dear Dakin: Thanks for the re-frame in Buddhism. ("...I'm certainly not an expert on the Buddhist religion, but I would have to say that there must be a difference between the theory of Buddhism and its practice. Aren't there quite a few sects of Buddhism, all with their own views of correct practice? ...") Of course, you are very right and I need to remind folks that I am speaking only in the most general terms here. Hinayana ("small way") and Mahayana ("great way") will certainly have their own spin on these themes as will culturally specific approaches such as Tibetan vs Korean and Japanese vs Chinese. Let me also say that we are talking about people--- human beings--- who aspire to an ideal and fall short more often or not. Precepts which encourage a Buddhist not to "trade in the wine of illusion" does not guarantee no Buddhist will become an alkie or a druggy. The Precept that encourages a Buddhist to be sensually/sexually modest does not guarantee that person won't screw around on his wife. I'm with you, Dakin. I would like to think that I would practice non-attachment in all my lifes' dealings, but I'll bet that I'd be just as upset as anyone if somebody "keyed" my car. Sorry-wish I could report something better. As for the comment about Confucian and Buddhist influences, I would say that we have the luxury of viewing these things from modern times and from outside of Korean culture. From what I have gathered perusing the Sourcebooks put out by Columbia University apparently both Confucianism and Buddhism enjoyed pretty equal status (maybe Buddhism had a bit of an edge) for about 500 years. Seems that the influence of the Buddhist faith in Korean politics met the same end in Korean that Buddhism in Japanese politics met in Japan. Ooooopppssss. Separation of Church and State Issues, ne? :-) The Japanese had that nifty habit of keeping everything (even cultural issues) neatly sorted and compartmentalized. The Koreans however seem to have simply lapsed back on to Confucianism which neatly supported the interests of the vested elite of the Bone System. (Funny how that works. The guys on top always seem to find value systems that tend to keep them there. Of course, in the US we would call such people Republicans ( :-) ) --- but I don't think we want to go there.) All the same the Buddhist influence, for good or bad, has had an enduring impact on the path along which Korean traditions developed--- and that was pretty much my point. BTW: I am by no means an authority on Korean styles but the comments about training clothes caught my eye. The reason I am mentioning this is that for a long time I was sure that the Japanese and Koreans shared the idea of a do-bok styled roughly on the old Karate/Judo uniform. When practicing Kumdo we also wear a hakama (very Japanese). However, in speaking to GM Koo, he reports that the traditional Korean dress for martial training could be of two variations. One variation was a split skirt similar to the hakama but with a top with could be tucked in for practice or left out for meditation. The other variation was an outfit reminiscent of the simple, loose dress of the Korean foot soldier which was much like a Japanese gi but often gathered or bound at the wrist and ankle. I mentioned the new uniforms worn by GM Myung (WHF) and that of GM Lee, Joo Bang (Hwa RangDo) and the response was that this styling was more a reflection of general Korean culture rather than specifically of some martial tradition or application. Just my 2 cents, Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 6:58:23 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #273 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.