From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #286 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 10 May 2001 Vol 08 : Num 286 In this issue: the_dojang: Cardio Workout Videos the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #284 the_dojang: Re: Works the_dojang: Re: throwing out students for "insufficient progress"? the_dojang: RE: Commerce stuff the_dojang: throwing out students for "insufficient progress"? the_dojang: Catch-as-Catch-can Re: the_dojang: Catch-as-Catch-can the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ken McDonough Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 07:05:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Cardio Workout Videos Dr. H stated, in part: Response: I was at the gym yesterday, doing the cycle machine and the TV above me was talking about Tae Bo and Billy Banks. Said, "The greatest martial artist ever !" Is this true ? What happened for him to get this title. Who did he fight ? When did he do that. How. And nah, di da da... McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 10:21:02 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #284 Donnla, I saw your previous post about your husband, and now this one. I'll give you my $0.02 worth. For the most part there is not a great deal of difference in physical training between Karate (Shotokan, ect) and Korean styles of Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do. The primary difference is that Korean styles will be more focused on kicks and high kicks. But most Japanese style schools are now much more focused on kicks and higher kicks than they used to be, say 20-30 years ago. In my opinion, any good instructor challenges every student, to his or her maximum capabilities. However, I do not know any good instructors that would kick a student out as long as the student is trying. In my opinion, I would not want to learn from an instructor that kicks students out if they progress slower, so long as they are trying. Let's face it, the "Do" is about developing and polishing character, not about physical technique. There are times when I have had to let students go, and I expect that is the same with most instructors. But, and this may surprise you, it is usually the physically gifted students who end up leaving. That is because the physical aspect always comes very easy for them. Consequently, physically gifted students do not develop the mental discipline early own that a student who really has to try hard to get the physical basics. The problem is that once these gifted students reach the point where the training becomes more mental, they often are not ready to test because they have not developed the mental aspects. Consequently, many times they end up quitting because they lack the mental discipline to continue. Danny Dunn <<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 10:30:05 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Works Richard wrote: "Didn’t mean to upset a brother but my point is that maybe the “Pro-Wrestling” training is more real than people would think." Actually, I couldn't agree with you more. Professional wrestlers are some of the most well-conditioned athletes on the face of the planet, and the training they have to endure in order to perfect their craft is far more intense than 90% of what passes today as "martial arts training". Unfortunately, people have a tendency to lump all "workers" into the same category. As such, "pro wrestlers" like Antonio Inoki, Lou Thesz, and Satoru Sayama will always be associated with the likes of Triple-H, Rick Flair, and Stone Cold Steve Austin. All of these guys are great athletes. The difference is that the former group are "martial artists" in the sense that they have real fighting skill in addition to their performance skills. The latter group doesn't know an armbar from a singles bar. This is unfortunate, but it's a reality nonetheless. From my own point of view, I tend to respect those that "work" the Asian circuits a little more than those who make thier livings in the WWF. American pro wrestling has devolved to little more than a male soap opera with sex and violence thrown in as props. The "art" of wrestling has taken a backseat to trashtalking and silicon enhanced cleavage. I don't see this in the Asian game. Most of the fighters have real skill, and can back their game up with more than just a steroid enhanced physique. Guys like Sayama (aka, Tiger Mask) have real martial skill, and have a lot to offer anyone who has the fortitude to train with them. In Sayama's case, he molded his knowledge of Muay Thai, Sambo, and Catch-as-catch-can wrestling into the "real" combative sport of Shooto. Shooto's influence can be seen in the NHB arena with participation from many quality fighters from that discipline (Sato, Sakurai, etc.), and the creation of similar sports/disciplines (UWFI, Pancrase, etc.). I think it's unfortunate that pro wrestlers still get tagged as "fakes"...especially since they stopped selling this stuff as being "real" long ago. However, the only people who use the term "fake" are generally the ones that know little about the sport...and their opinions don't stand for much anyway (plus we all know that opinons are like $&*^@!#...everybody's got one!!!). For those that do persist in using this term, I invite them to go get on the mat with Sakaraba, Alexander Otsuka, Karl Malenko, et al. Having one's ankles, shoulders, and necks stretched beyond the specifications of nature's design has a peculiar way of adjusting one's attitude, and bringing about somewhat of an epiphany as to what is "real" and what is "fake". In the end...I agree with you. A double standard exists. Real fighters like Lou Thesz, Karl Gotch, and Sayama will forever be branded as "fakes" because of their involvement in "sports entertainment". Meanwhile, the martial arts glossies are chocked full of "legitimate" fighters and so-called "masters"...most of which don't have a clue, and aren't going to get one any time soon. Oh well...I have my path...they have theirs. To each their own. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Thayne_Coffman@trilogy.com Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 10:53:16 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: throwing out students for "insufficient progress"? As an example of some of the reasons I plan to stay with my current master for a long time (aside from the fact that I'm very confident in his ability to kill me if he wanted) : We have a student in our dojang that suffered a stroke when he was a blue-belt or so. He took time off, and then returned to training. He's been working his way from blue to 1st degree black over the past 4+ years, and just got it a few months ago (which is probably around 2x as long as it takes other people). He knows his techniques and his forms, and he's concentrating and doing them to the best of his ability. Master Lee (Byung In Lee, 8th degree KSW, Austin, TX) was talking about training one day, and said something to the effect of "Kevin doesn't have the same body that other people have, but it's his heart that I love." He's also fond of holding up his hand on occasion and showing off some of his mangled fingers (one was broken and never re-set correctly). He talks about how some of his fingers look nice and are strong, and some of his fingers are weak and not very pretty, but that what's most important is that together, they are his hand. If you took away any of the fingers, it would no longer be a complete hand. That usually goes into a discussion of how he made the choice between taking 3 or 4 people and having a "champion martial arts school", and having what he has now - a family martial arts school. Anyway, mixed in with those talks are occasional times when he'll chew someone out pretty badly because they're not concentrating or not being serious. It's always criticism against your own potential, though, not some arbitrary standard of how long "normal" people take to do something. - -Thayne 1st Dan KSW ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 10:35:15 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Commerce stuff Dear Richard: ".... I just get tired of people downing workers for trying to make a living. If you wrestle (Wrassle) you're a fake! If you make money teaching you're a Sell Out! But it seems perfectably acceptable to make Kardio Karate videos or low budget Ninja movies. What a double standard...." I can't claim to be a fan of WWF or NHB, for that matter so my comment comes less from a technical position than a socio-economic one. My objection in this matter has a lot more to do with what benefit people derive FROM these efforts rather that what those efforts contribute TO the field. As I write this there are a couple items that come to mind. One item I have noticed is that in my state (Illinois) each time somebody wants to do something "colorful" such as introduce riverboat gambling, or raise tolls, they trot out how such things will improve the educational system or add to the medical services for the elderly. I mention this because when people were organizing TKD the hue&cry was that organization, and later, acceptance as an Olympic event would improve TKD for everybody. I would probably have a great deal more sympathy and interest in the activities you identified if I didn't feel that once again there was smoke being blown up my pants leg. As near as I can tell these activities you cite are not about individuals making money, but rather promoters and managers increasing their revenues at the expense of the players. Another item I have noticed is that the activities you mentioned don't seem to contribute anything back into the community. Hulk Hogan visits hospitals now and again, but where are the grappling equivalents of Little League Baseball and All-Night Basketball Leagues? Do Boy Scouts/Girl Scouts support grappling/wrestling with a badge? I seem to remember that they have a badge for MA or TKD but I could be wrong. On the other hand, wrestling and NHB events come into a community, take the revenues and leave, and not to be seen again until the next time they stop by to take yet more revenues from the community. My final point is that I don't have anything against commerce per se. I do have something against commerce done badly. We have more than a few environmental, social, and entertainment fields that have been blighted by over-exploitation. Like the farmers of the 1800-s, when a single parcel of land was played-out, they relocated to another parcel. I get the feeling that folks that are currently beating the drum for the activities you mention will simply switch to another kind of snake oil when the fad plays out. What of the communities into which these activities were introduced? Aren't these activities responsible for managing their "toxic spills"? Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Dennis McHenry" Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 11:59:12 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: throwing out students for "insufficient progress"? I've only kicked out a couple of students in my career, but not for insufficient progress. Not paying attention and not following directions was one (very disruptive young beginner), the other was an advanced adult (teenager) student that didn't seem to have any control and tended to hurt the other students. He was extremely cocky because he was a very good fighter. He could dish it out but couldn't take it himself and was very disrespectful. I could do without his type. Everybody advances at their own pace. It is hard for me to believe that any instructor would ask a student, no matter their abilities, to leave as long as they were trying. I have had several gup level students who can go over a year without a promotion. The students who don't seem to care at all and don't put out any effort bother me, and I'll ask their parents why they continue to even come to class. But the parents say the kids like it and it is really helping them out - so they stay. It is up to them. You are better off without that instructor. Good luck. Mac ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the EV1 webmail system at mail.ev1.net ------------------------------ From: Lorne Keatley Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 15:15:25 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Catch-as-Catch-can Hi all, Been a member of the list for a long time, but this is my first post. I am a student of Master Rudy Timmerman and earned a third degree under him. The recent posts about the differences between the WWF "sport entertainment" and NHB events explosions has brought out another issue. Is the techniques involved in wrasslin' valid? IMHO, absolutely. In the opinion of others, no way. Why? Many are blinded by the fireworks, flashy costumes, and some manuevers that look almost impossible to pull off. Well, pro wrestling is like that because that is what sells. The business is about making money, and whatever puts the marks (a.k.a.fans) in the seats, then that is what done. However there are valid roots. Catch-as-catch-can, forerunner of the pro style, is an art very close to philosophy of BJJ. Take the opponent down to ground to limit his movement an set him up for a choke or submission move. The tie-ups and submission maneuvers shown in the WWF are mostly from catch. The moves from catch usually involve attack against joints, but also to stretch muscle pgroups in order to gain a submission. The reasons these moves aren't seen on the WWF is that they are not as exciting as it is not apparent the pain involved. One can only know the pain involved in a neck crank or leg lock if one has one applied correctly. As to the high-flying moves, that is from Lucha Libre, or Mexican pro wrasslin'. Those guys are certainly athletes! Besides, a worked match is not any different than a martial arts demonstration. And is a 6 foot high jumping spinning hook kick anymore flashy than a Lucha Libre head scissors? Not to the ones who train for it. Lastly, I don't believe anyone would want Judo Gene Lebell to prove to them the moves work. Ouch!!! Lorne Keatley ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 13:11:23 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Catch-as-Catch-can > flashy than a Lucha Libre head scissors? Not to the ones who train for > it. Lastly, I don't believe anyone would want Judo Gene Lebell to prove > to them the moves work. Ouch!!! Or 6 time pro-rasslin champ Lou Thesz. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 13:49:00 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #286 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.