From:      the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com
To:        the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com
Subject:   The_Dojang-Digest V8 #289
Reply-To:  the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com
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The_Dojang-Digest             Fri, 11 May 2001          Vol 08 : Num 289

In this issue:

       the_dojang: Re: Billy Blanks
       the_dojang: RE: Scouts & MA
       the_dojang: RE: Scouts
       the_dojang: RE: Catch as catch can
       the_dojang: RE: culture stuff
       the_dojang: Re: WWF ProWrestlers&ProFootbal Players
       the_dojang: Catchwrestling misinformation.
       the_dojang: Re: Catch Wrestling Information
       Re: the_dojang: Catchwrestling misinformation.
       the_dojang: .
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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: JSaportajr@aol.com
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 09:05:37 EDT
Subject: the_dojang: Re: Billy Blanks

In a message dated 5/10/2001 10:22:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes:

<<  I don't think he ever did any full contact. >>
I saw a tape of Billy Blanks fighting full contact, I think it was in 
Maryland though Im not sure. He knocked his opponent out cold with a spinning 
wheel kick to the face. I have not followed his career and know little about 
it, but on this tape he looked very good. Jose

------------------------------

From: Kirk Lawson <lklawson@heapy.com>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 9:27:00 -0500
Subject: the_dojang: RE: Scouts & MA

 "Michael Rowe" <Michael.Rowe@sitel.com> wrote:

> Subject: the_dojang: RE: Merit Badge
>
> <<Do Boy Scouts/Girl Scouts support grappling/wrestling with
> a badge? I seem
> to remember that they have a badge for MA or TKD but I could
> be wrong.>>
>
> Then you would be wrong for the do not.

The Boy Scouts *used* to have a Master At Arms merit badge which included   
Quarterstaff play.  http://www.frankdoc.in2home.co.uk/scout1.htm

In India, a Police official named Lang who taught a cane method to the   
Indian Police was successful in substituting his cane method for the   
quarterstaff in the Indian Boy Scouts program.   
http://www.the-exiles.org/manual/lang/lang.htm (in the preface section).

I do not know what eventually happened to this merit badge.  It may have   
been phased out.  It may still be available but unknown.  It may or may   
not be possible to reinstitute it.

Peace favor your sword
==
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look   
upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
 -Mahatma Gandhi, "Gandhi, An Autobiography", M. K. Gandhi, page 446

------------------------------

From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" <Michael.Rowe@sitel.com>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:35:54 -0500
Subject: the_dojang: RE: Scouts

Robert Martin Writes:

<<I have not been a Scout Master for a few years (my son earned his Eagle
Scout at 15 -- and then got busy with school and work and I went back to
teaching TKD.). At that time, Judo was part of the sports or athletics merit
badge. I worked for a short while to get TKD included. I was able to get a
hearing from BSA headquarters. The final decision was that they did not want
to include any sport that encouraged kicking or hitting -- to violent. Keep
in mind that football and rugby were included. I gave up. I would love to
tackle it again someday. Anyone interested in working on it?>>

Judo is still allowed as a part of the requirement for the Sport Merit
Badge. Judo is 
similar enough to wrestling that it got itself included. (obviously someone
forgot to 
mention to them the Strike Waza (some reason can't rember the spelling of
the Japanese word)

The BSA still doesn't want to encourage Striking and Kicking. I set up an
Explore Post 
for martial arts studies. They were very reluctant. However, on their list
of acceptable 
activities was Aikido. Well I gave a demonstration of Hapkido (minus the
kicks of course) and
suddenly I was approved.

Of course since Aikido and Hapkido are not sports they can not be used for
the merit badge.

Michael Rowe
Dan Il Kwan - Gym of Unity
Unity Church of Omaha
3424 N 90th Street
Omaha, Nebraska 68134 

------------------------------

From: "Michael Rowe (outlook)" <Michael.Rowe@sitel.com>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:39:54 -0500
Subject: the_dojang: RE: Catch as catch can

> What people call "catch-as-catch-can" is a made-up style that was adapted
> from professional wrestling moves.  It is not based on sound competitive
or
> real-world trial and error.  Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is a distillation and
> enhancement of pre-WWII Judo techniques that IS based on trial and error
> gained through years of competition and years of real-world personal
combat.
> 
> While they may be similar strategically, they are VERY different
> conceptually and philosophically.

Far from a made-up style. Catch as catch can is the precursor that
eventually evolved into 
professional RASSLING. It has sound body mechanics and a body of techniques
proven in competition and sometimes self defense. Even President Lincoln was
a Catch competitor in his youth.

Catch eventually evolved in this country into Folk Style Wrestling which is
still practiced in High School Around the USA. Although Folk Style Wrestling
is evolving to look more and more like Freestyle wrestling.

Michael Rowe
Dan Il Kwan - Gym of Unity
Unity Church of Omaha
3424 N 90th Street
Omaha, Nebraska 68134 

------------------------------

From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:48:12 -0500
Subject: the_dojang: RE: culture stuff

Dear TKDTiger: 

"...For those of us born and bred in the USA, it is literally an
incomprehensible issue since it is the fundamental principle on which all
sport is based, and one with which we have been familiar since little league
and peewee athletics..." 

With all due respect to your friend (and thank you for forwarding the post),
"what planet have you been living on?" 

Modern Koreans may watch cable TV and carry cellular phones, but the
heritage of class-driven society and oligarchical rule along with its
internecine struggles is as much a reality today as it has been for
centuries. Did you think it was a coincidence that Korea is split into North
and South rather than East and West? I read, repeatedly, how Korean martial
tradition was subverted by Confucian thought. Consider that this is like
saying that the American Civil War was started by Republicans. There is a
cultural reason that affiliation in Korean MA is to a kwan, rather than a
style and to a teacher rather than a lineage. 

The author of your post is also right to admonish Americans not to be smug
in our heritage of "sportsmanship" and "fair play." Having attended TKD
tournaments albeit a while ago, I know that one cannot slip a piece of paper
between what might be "youthful arrogance" on one hand  and "blatant
disrespect" on the other. We Americans learn well, but there is no guarantee
that what we are absorbing is always the best that the Korean arts have to
offer. Those arts are, after all, commonly filtered through the life
experiences of transplanted Korean nationals and can easily carry many of
the same cultural themes from the Old world to the New. In terms of
capitalism and exploitation it is hard to know, looking at the Korean and
the American culture, who is teaching what and to whom. The concerns of your
post-er could suggest that somebody is learning not wisely but too well. 

Best Wishes, 
Bruce 

------------------------------

From: JSaportajr@aol.com
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 10:50:49 EDT
Subject: the_dojang: Re: WWF ProWrestlers&ProFootbal Players

This may sound silly, but I will give it a shot. I have often thought that 
WWF pro wrestlers would be formidable opponents for the average and even the 
above average martial artists. For example, I would submit that The Rock 
would kill most martial artists in a street fight. These guys are in Great 
shape, they are very strong, they are used to taking pain so would be very 
hard to stop, and they do know some wrestling holds and moves that could be 
devastating. They are flexible and take some big hits and falls without being 
phased. It may be entertainment on TV but I truly believe that not many 
weekend warrior martial artists could defeat one of these guys in a street 
fight. My taekwondo teacher who is a sixth dan, 1st Dan Hapkido and a very 
strong and tough guy agrees with me on this and says he would hate to tangle 
with one of these guys on the street. With the Rock add to this that he was a 
former profootball player, so he is very used to getting hit and hitting very 
hard. This leads me to submit that the average martial arts black belt would 
not stand a chance against a pro football player, especially one of these 
huge giants that are used to getting hit by other giants at full speed and 
just brush it off like nothing. These guys would kill the average and even 
above average martial artist. It would be like getting hit by a freight 
train. This discussion of who can beat up who may seem silly and adolescent 
but I also think it is useful to seriously asses the potential for the 
martial artist to defend him or herself against various sorts of people. I 
think that most martial artists seriously and dangerously overestimate their 
capacity to defend themselves and find it hard to accept their limitations in 
self defense. My Hapkido teacher, a former green beret and superb Hapkido 
master put it this way, "Martial arts training at best gives you a better 
than average chance in an average situation." I agree with this completely, 
and I think people like pro wrestlers and pro football players such as 
defensive line men are way beyond the average situation. If anyone cares to 
engage me in this adolescent debate, I would be curious to hear other views.  
Jose/

------------------------------

From: "Craig Stovall" <craigstovall@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 10:09:16 -0500
Subject: the_dojang: Catchwrestling misinformation.

"What people call "catch-as-catch-can" is a made-up style that was adapted 
from professional wrestling moves.  It is not based on sound competative or 
real-world trial and error.  Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is a distillation and 
enhancement of pre-WWII Judo techniques that IS based on trial and error 
gained through years of competition and years of real-world personal 
combat."

Sorry...but that analysis just isn't true.

"Catch", or Lancashire style wrestling, predates modern professional 
wrestling by at least 100 years...maybe more depending on who you talk to.  
This is not a "chicken or the egg" type of argument.  Guys like Farmer Burns 
were barnstorming across the country putting on REAL submission wrestling 
matches long before "show wrestling" became popular.

I agree with your assessment of BJJ...although our definition of "real world 
personal combat" might differ.  If you're talking about a duel between two 
parties who have agreed to fight with a minimum of rules...then Catch has 
seen just as much of this as has BJJ.

Now, this is not to say that there isn't some controversy in the Catch 
"community".  The internet war between Matt Furey's and Tony Cecchine's 
camps have provided hours of enjoyment for those lucky enough to been on the 
message boards at that time.  Tons of expletives and personal venom were 
spewed about what is "real" Catchwrestling, and who's qualified to teach 
Catchwrestling, and who is not...blah blah blah.  IMHO, that little war 
helped add fuel to the conjecture that Catch was just "made up"...what with 
one side claiming that the other had lied about some things (Furey claims 
that Tony C is a fake, and has never trained under a "true" catchwrestler).  
In the end...it's all soap opera BS.

As far as Catch being "made up" from pro wrestling...the facts don't bear 
that out.  Billy Riley's Snake Pit in Wigan, England was churning out 
Catchwrestlers long before promoters started putting on staged wrestling 
exhibitions.  Farmer burns was the real deal.  Frank Gotch was the real 
deal.  These boys were twisting necks and breaking legs a few decades before 
the exhibition craze took over.  These are all facts...argue with them if 
you will, but there's still plenty of people alive to atest to this.

Admittedly, some confusion stems from the fact that true Hookers like George 
Tragos, Lou Thesz, Karl Istasz (aka, Karl Gotch), and Billy Robinson have 
all done "show" wrestling in order to pay the bills.  This doesn't change 
the fact that these guys are REAL grapplers, and can all trace their 
"lineage" back to the Lancashire style from England.

Oh, by the way....Ray, sorry but that Karl Gotch/Kimura story is a popular 
myth.  Karl has stated on more than one occasion that this never happened.

BTW, I'd love to be a fly on the wall if someone told Karl Gotch to his face 
that his art was "made up from pro wrestling moves", and then agreed to get 
on the mat with him to see just how "made up" it really is...LOL!!!

Snap...crackle...pop!!!
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

------------------------------

From: Lorne Keatley <lkeatley@sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 11:00:10 -0700
Subject: the_dojang: Re: Catch Wrestling Information

> What people call "catch-as-catch-can" is a made-up style that was adapted
> from professional wrestling moves.  It is not based on sound competative or
> real-world trial and error.  Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is a distillation and
> enhancement of pre-WWII Judo techniques that IS based on trial and error
> gained through years of competition and years of real-world personal combat.
> 
> While they may be similar strategically, they are VERY different
> conceptually and philisophically.

John,

I'm afraid you have this backwards.  Professional wrestling is derived
from Catch Wrestling that was imported from England.  I believe it was
Lancashire style, but don't quote me.  This style of wrestling was
different than all other types in the British Isles.  Most styles either
just went for taking people to the ground,  or for a shoulder pin, but
Catch was also involved in the submissions that soon found their way
into pro wrestling, shoot wrestling and sambo.  Common misconception. 
Especially since it is actually stated on the WWF TV shows that Pro
Wrestling is Catch-as-catch-can.

>These old 'hookers' doing catch -supposedly- had little problem submitting 
>the Judo and JJ players they faced.  Most all of the 'hookers' are now gone, 
>too bad given how highly effective their art was.   don't go there... :)

Ray is correct, again.  Catch wrestling is very scarce and without some
efforts by noteables such as Karl Gotch and Lou Thesz it might very well
disappear! :(

>To train with perhaps the best in submission, check out 85 year old Lou Thesz.
>He still occasionally teaches seminars.

Apparently a man named Tony Cecchine is being trained by Lou Thesz.  He
has a website at www.catchwrestle.com.  There are a number of resources
available there.  Haven't purchased any videos yet, but serious
consideration is underway.

Lorne

------------------------------

From: Ray Terry <raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 9:08:54 PDT
Subject: Re: the_dojang: Catchwrestling misinformation.

> Oh, by the way....Ray, sorry but that Karl Gotch/Kimura story is a popular 
> myth.  Karl has stated on more than one occasion that this never happened.

Perhaps, but this from Tony C...

<<Let me tell you what Karl Gotch told me about his sparring with Kimura.

The key point here is that KARL GOTCH TOLD ME so this is not hearsay.

Kimura was in Florida as a pro wrestler. He was in the gym looking for a
workout. Someone (I would presume Boris Malenko) told Kimura that Karl was a
very gifted wrestler. They proceeded to wrestle ( no gi of course) and Karl
promptly hooked Kimura with a left sided head scissor. Kimura shrugged that it
was a good move but one that did not lend itself to a high percentage of
success. They squared off again. Gotch took him down and within 60 seconds
applied a right sided head scissor...lol. All in all Karl tapped Kimura 6
times in about 10 minutes. Kimura could not even get a submission attempt.
They were friends for the rest of Kimura's life. There was no animosity shown
by Kimura.

Kimura was also snuffed by Luther Lindsay  (a phenomenal catch wrestler) and
John Foley who came out of the "Snakepit" in Wigan, England (where Gotch
trained and where my coach trained).

Karl told me that he lived in Brazil for about 7 years and that the
Gracies "closed the door" on him, which is an expression meaning we want no
part of you.

Karl placed 8th in the 1948 Olympic Greco-Roman competition. He wrestled in
the 90kg weight class and represented Belgium (where he was raised). He
wrestled under his real name of Charles Istaz.

Karl became a pro-wrestling coach in Japan. He didn't train Catch Wrestlers,
he trained pro wrestlers. Of course he showed them some legit hooks, but he
never trained them as Hookers. One time he was training Riki Chosu, who had
just gotten off the Japanese Olympic wrestling team. tempers flared between
Karl and Chosu and they got into a tussle. Chosu took Karl down and Karl
proceeded to reverse him and get a hold on Chosu. Karl did not let go but
kept cinching it tighter and tighter. In short order Chosu was weeping in the
ring uncontrolably. Karl would not let the hold go until Chosu declared Karl
his superior. It was a beautiful thing.....

Tony C>>


P.S. Tony C's complete set of Catch Wrestling videos is pretty good, just
wish he would realize that most VCRs these days have a rewind button on them.

Ray Terry
raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com

------------------------------

From: Ray Terry <raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 9:37:43 PDT
Subject: the_dojang: .


------------------------------

End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #289
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