From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #291 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sat, 12 May 2001 Vol 08 : Num 291 In this issue: the_dojang: Hapkido Promotion the_dojang: RE: And your point was what, exactly... the_dojang: BJJ emphasis on position the_dojang: GOOD Catch Information Re: the_dojang: GOOD Catch information the_dojang: world class athletes the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1111 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: todd miller Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 20:04:12 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido Promotion Congratulations to Chiefmaster Lim Chae Kwan for his recent promotion to Chiefmaster at the Jungki Kwan, Taegu South Korea Take care and train hard Todd Miller Korea Jungki Hapkido & Kuhapdo Assc. ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 21:50:37 EDT Subject: the_dojang: RE: And your point was what, exactly... In a message dated 5/11/2001 6:13:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << RE: And your point was what, exactly... >> Jeez Bruce, Where did that come from? I think you made a couple of assumptions and ran with it in your somewhat unwarranted tirade. First, I never said or implied that any martial arts training was or is a waste of time because of the limits of that training in self defense. I believe that self defense is a small part of the motive for martial arts training, particularly mine, which I have engaged in since 1978 or so, since I have never been in a physical fight in my life. Nor did I state or imply, to quote you,"when all that really matters is whether or not I can dominate another human being" and in no way did I imply, as you attribute to me, "by your standards, which apparently elevate muscle over class" As a friend of mine who is a lawyer and a psychologist would say, "projection overruled." Please do not assume that my understanding of the value of martial arts training or my motives for training are as simplistic and monolithic as you attribute to me. But I do think that it is an interesting or fun topic of discussion on a list such as this to realistically asses the limits of out training in terms of self defense and to wonder whether there are types of athletes or persons who would present a special and perhaps insurmountable challenge to a martial arts master. I have also sincerely wondered in watching prowrestlers, "Gee, I wonder how a good martial artist would fare against one of these guys," and I simply wanted to see if others were interested in joining me in this simple question. It was not meant as a personal slight. If you do not find the question interesting or worthy of discussion, perhaps you could just ignore it. Jose ------------------------------ From: "John Bennett" Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 21:45:48 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: BJJ emphasis on position > Apart from this > basic philosophy, there are major differences. BJJ, as far as I know, > tries to get the opponent in a hold from whatever position they might be > in except perhaps being on the wrong end of a mount position. Catch, on > the other hand, exposes to get on top as soon as possible to take > advantage of leverage. I'm sorry Lorne but you have it exactly backwards. One of the fundamental tenets of BJJ is * Position Before Submission *. One of the very first things a new student learns is that proper positioning is the key to inescapable submissions. In other words, it's better to lose a submission than to sacrifice your position in the attempt. "Catch Wrestlers" on the other hand pride themselves on their supposed ability to "pull a hook out of any position". ------------------------------ From: "John Bennett" Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 21:55:52 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: GOOD Catch Information Do you guys have any information about the history and development of "catch wrestling" that does'n't come from websites and the things a couple of guys with a vested interest have said on web forums. A lot of your information on "catch" seems akin to the "TKD was developed for kicking people off horses" and "white belt turns to black from years of sweat" myths. I've done some research on on "catch wrestling" and from what I can tell it was made up to capitalize on the grappling craze of the 90's. None of the books I've read ever spoke of it as a martial art with schools, traditions, and a methodology for transference. What I see are a bunch of former high-school wrestlers who learned some submissions looking to give historical credence to what they are already doing. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 21:05:31 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: GOOD Catch information > Do you guys have any information about the history and development of "catch > wrestling" that doesn't come from websites and the things a couple of guys > with a vested interest have said on web forums. Actually, none of my info came from websites, but I think I'll go out and see what is out there. See some of the books published around the turn of the century, the 20th century that is, on the subject. e.g. Farmer Burns' course on physical training and catch wrestling. Don't get me wrong Judo, JJ, BJJ, GJJ are fine. My first -asian- martial art was Judo. But in the area of submission, they have nothing over catch wrestling, nothing... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 21:17:53 PDT Subject: the_dojang: world class athletes When it comes to martial arts techniques I often think of some of the football players when we lived together in the football dorm (I was a dorm "RA"). Many of these fellows had long careers in the NFL, several went on to be All-Pro. I think of just two people; one was Billy Ezzo, the other was Doug France. Doug "Bubba" France was a good friend, 6'6" and a lean 270 lbs as a college freshman and eventually an All-Pro offensive tackle for the Rams (then in LA). Billy held the US record in the 60 yard dash (indoor track). Doug was big, stong, and fast. Billy was little and VERY quick. When I practice a take down or a limb destruction I consider if it would work on these two guys. One so big and strong it seemed he could pop your head like a grape, using only one hand. The other so quick and fast and springs so tight that at only 5'5" or so he could easily dunk a B-ball (but he had to use two hands because his hands were too small to hold it in only one). If you can make your techniques work against a "Jason" like one of these guys, you're getting close... Only a few more years to go... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 21:24:15 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #291 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.